Donna Ashworth | Midlife Joy & Letting Go of Perfection

Donna Ashworth

“If you wake up expecting disappointment, expecting misery, expecting things to go wrong, you'll always find disappointment, you'll never be disappointed about that. But if you wake up and you decide, I'm going to seek all the ways in which little things go right, I'm going to look for all the little bits of magic and human connection, then you will never be disappointed because it's absolutely everywhere.”

Michelle: Donna Ashworth is a Sunday Times bestselling poet and author, recently named the UK's number one bestselling female non-fiction author and number two in the world just behind Mel Robbins. That's incredible. She's known for

her anthologies that seem to arrive in our lives just when we need them most and her new book

Joy Chose You is a collection of poems and reflections that remind us joy isn't something

we have to chase, it's something we can allow even in the midst of life's challenges.

From grief and change to laughter and love, Donna's words offer a hand to hold and a nudge

towards hope. She's built a remarkable community of readers online with over a

million people finding daily solace and strength in her posts, proof that words

really can be medicine for the soul. Donna, it is truly such a joy to have you here.

Welcome to the show.

Donna: Aw, thank you. What a gorgeous intro.

Michelle: Now you've come a long way from the 'Instagram poet'. I don't think we can even call you that anymore. I think you've gone way beyond just social media platforms because you've had an incredible summer.

You've been at so many festivals. You're a prolific author now. You've got another new book that we're going to talk about shortly. And I have to applaud you again, Donna. Last time we spoke, your word of the year was brave for growing brave and one of the things you talked about was overcoming that absolute crippling anxiety of getting on stage and talking to people. Well, I think you've done it, haven't you?

Donna: I think I have. Do you know what? It wasn't easy. As with all good things,

you know, it was a slog. I had a little bit of hypnotherapy with a lovely man

called Jonathan Goodwin who, you know, basically did all he could with me and said,

this is done now. What's left here is the self-fulfilling prophecy that is yours to,

you know, face off, which is something that so many of us have. You know, we tell ourselves

things all the time. And if you have a thought over and over and over, it hardwires,

it becomes a belief. So I think midlife for a lot of people, a lot of women especially,

is about unpicking those beliefs that actually, are they true? Do we really believe them?

And then hardwiring new ones. So my new one is, I love public speaking.

It flowed through me with ease. And when I first told myself this over and over,

it was a lie. You know, it wasn't true. I didn't love it at all. But I'm glad to say

that as with all things, if you repeat them enough and you want it enough, it's become

And what I've always enjoyed about getting over the fear of public speaking is what is on the

other side of that. And let me tell you what's on the other side. It's loads and loads and

loads of amazing women who are just like me and we connect immediately and we have a chat

and we overshare. And, you know, all just strangers who are just friends you haven't

met yet. So everything good is on the other side of cringe and fear. Something I tell

myself all the time. So it's been, you know, it's been hard, but so very worth it.

Michelle: But I know one thing that's really important to you is connection, isn't it? And that is

something that I think you can pick up in a room or a marquee or wherever you are and you're

doing a Fane production talk as well, getting on stage. But it's palpable, isn't it? The

way that you feel your words resonate. I'm sure when you're standing on stage behind that

mic and you're seeing women listen to your poetry maybe for the first time and you see

that light bulb moment like, oh, she's talking to me. That's exactly the way that I feel.

That must feel incredibly powerful.

Donna: It's amazing. It's the best thing in the world, bar none to me, is that feeling the little goosebumps. You know the way when you’re talking to someone and they say something and either you were just thinking it or you were just about to say it or it resonates with you so hugely that you'll get the little goosey skin and you're like, goosebumps, goosebumps. And to me, that is whatever,

in whatever way it's happening. Is it, you know, the brush of someone saying that's,

you're right. This is what you need to speak about. This is what I've been trying to tell

you. Or is it the frequency of each other connecting and making a little frisson?

Whatever it is, it's bigger than us. And you're aware you're in the presence of some sort of

connection that just happened. So when that happens, you know, with a couple of hundred

people in the same space, it's wonderful. It's just beautiful.

Joy Chose You - October 2025

Michelle: You've always been a writer because you've written songs and you've been a magazine writer. And then as we went into COVID, you found poetry to be a really good vessel for you, for your feelings and to share with others, which is where you became the 'Instagram poet'. And When the World Stopped was a poem that was shared across the sea and across the UK, making millions for the NHS. That was really your beginning. And obviously you've come a long way from that.

But one of the things that resonated with me and it was just actually on Instagram

from you the other day. It stopped me in my tracks because your book is about

finding the joy. But I think at the moment, and we'll come onto the book in a little bit,

but I want to just point out something that stopped me in my tracks. About two days ago,

you posted something and you said, we were never meant to know all of life's troubles

all of the time. No human condition was ever supposed to worry for all human conditions.

And I thought, I had to show my husband. I said, she's nailed it. She's absolutely nailed it.

We're all feeling so sort of upset by world events and the news reels, the news cycles

are so toxic. We don't see anything good in there, but we have to curate. We have to

feed our mind better, because as you pointed out, we've got to find the antidote to the

news. Otherwise, all we're doing is flooding our heads, our bodies, our minds with this

negativity. How do you deal with it?

Donna: I mean, I've had to do this to survive my entire life. I think I've spoken about it

quite a lot, but the first time I sort of had a breakdown was in university.

And it was a news story that set me off then. Now, it would have been happening,

the big change in my life, leaving home, going away to university, new stages,

transitions. It was probably all happening. But that news story,

that was me I went under. And I did not want to be on this planet anymore,

where things like this were happening. And so I am somebody that has had to actively avoid

the news for that reason, because there have been several news stories over the years,

especially in vulnerable times. So when I was a new mum, it became a real point of

contention in our home, because my husband watches the news constantly. And I, he would

think, oh, she's being oversensitive, unreasonable. But the truth is, my mental health was so poor

and so vulnerable that that news story about a child in danger or children in any kind of

harmful situation, it would set me off. I would become depressed. I would go under

as I term it. So I had to find ways of, I don't want to ignore, I don't want to be

ignorant. We have to be aware of what's going on. But how can we possibly choose from a menu

of 40 things in a day, each as bad as the other, each as horrific and, you know,

as the other, which we can do nothing about. So what you have to do is you have to try

and balance it out with all of the good stuff as well. Otherwise, you're only seeing

everything that's wrong. You become helpless. You become, you know, you become so bogged down

by the misery of it that you're no good to yourself, to your children, to your friends,

never mind the world.

So if you balance it out and make sure you're taking in all of the good stories as well, all of the ways in which humans save one another every day, and there are countless, but you have to work harder to find them, because they're not avidly, you know, available as the bad news. You have to work to find the good news stories.

And if you also be present in your own world first, do what you can in your own world to

make it what you want to see on the news. You want it to be peaceful. You want it to be

loving. You want it to be kind. You want community. You want connection. That is something

you can do in your vicinity right now. You can do some small thing. The ability to take

step towards that stress is very good for your mental health, because you're taking action.

Your nervous system feels safer. It feels more useful. You're involved. You're doing

something, but this stress that you can't do anything about, if you're constantly taking

that on board, you will sink. And yes, you can help. There are ways that we can all help,

but it has to be, it has to be done. You know, put your own life jacket on first,

put your own oxygen mask on first, otherwise you're no good to anyone.

Michelle: You can find yourself in an echo chamber of perpetuating toxicity, can't you? And I've

heard you say before that just taking a couple of minutes throughout the day to recalibrate,

try and find, you know, it's hard to be a rainbow when there's so much dark, isn't there?

And you have been described as sort of a rainbow spirit. You, you dopamine dress,

you wear wonderful colours.

Donna: Those are little tools that we can use as well to try and find the joy in our life by dressing in a way that makes us feel less invisible, more joyful, less dark. But I think everybody can find a few minutes to give themselves that self-care.

It's the intention of it. And intention is a really important word in all of this. So the

colours that I wear and the, you know, the things that I write, they're not a side effect

of me being a wonderful, sunny human being. You know, they're not just, oh, this is just how I

wake up every day and go, you know, give me all the color and look how happy I am. It's the

opposite is true. I'm somebody who overthinks, is oversensitive, who's overanxious, who's,

you know, an overachiever, too much, too much of all the things that you don't want to be

too much of and not enough of the things that society wants you to have. So these are

the ways in which I've found to help myself. If you, whatever you seek, you'll find.

So if you wake up expecting disappointment, expecting misery, expecting things to go wrong,

you're never going to be disappointed. You'll always find disappointment. You'll never be

disappointed about that. But if you wake up and you decide, I'm going to seek all the

ways in which little things go right. I'm going to seek all the ways in which people

help one another. I'm going to look for all the little bits of magic and, you know,

human connection and Mother Nature's magic, then you will never be disappointed because it's absolutely everywhere.

And the more you train your own algorithm, the more it comes to you. I no longer naturally seek the pessimistic view. And I used to be a pessimist and I used to be someone who could not help, but see all of the ways in which something could go wrong. They're still available to me now if I want to look at them, all of the ways in which something can go wrong. And my list is like this. You know, I've had overthinkers say to me, oh, you're like me, you know, you have intrusive thoughts. And I'll say,

yes, I bet you've also had the thought that this thing could happen any minute.

And they've looked at me and gone, no, I wasn't thinking that at all. You've gone

a whole new level. And I'm just like, oh, yeah. So, you know, my brain will automatically

seek that.

But on a daily basis now, it's joy seeking and it's light seeking and it's hope

seeking, it's hope questing. And that makes a huge difference, just makes a massive difference

and we can all do it. And it's the teeny tiny things.

Michelle: Yeah, it's setting the tone, isn't it? And it's feeding the monkey. If you feed the monkey bad stuff, you're going to get bad stuff. If you feed the monkey something more holistic and happy and joyful, that's what you'll find. Now, I think that's a pretty good way into talking about your new

anthology, Joy Chose You. It is an anthology of many of your different poems that you've

drawn from all the different publications that you've had over the years. And it is absolutely beautiful, the cover of it. It is a stunning cover. And I don't know whether I'm right about this, but for me, it's one of those books that you can't really put on a bookshelf because it would seem wrong to cover up the cover. And I don't know whether your intention was to make sure that it is left out, because one of the things that you always talk about is 'the book knows'. To get someone to walk past, pick up a book,

pick a random page and the book knows what you need to hear. You know what we need to

hear because so often you will nail it on, I didn't even know I was feeling that way,

or, oh yeah, that's exactly right, that's exactly what it is. So tell me a bit about your philosophy on how the book knows and how this book is really perfect for the whole family to just leave out on display or for a guest who's walking through.

Donna: Yeah, well, thank you, first of all. And yes, it's a coffee table book because my

followers have been asking me, I hate the word followers actually, I'm trying to think

of a new word for that because it makes it sound like I'm just kind of walking

along and everybody's walking behind me. The people who follow my page, there you go,

that's better. They were after a coffee table book with some art in it because I often

share some amazing art on my Facebook page especially. Sadly that's not possible because

these amazing artists, their work is so incredible and obviously that's part of their portfolio and there's so many complications with putting art into a book. But I wanted to achieve the same effect and have it beautifully illustrated so that it feels like something special. I've been really clear about having just the words on a page, it's really important

to me because the starker it is, somehow the better I think the message goes into your soul

because you're looking at that page and you're going, that's a poem, that's so brave to

stand on its own like that, it's a little quote, it's going to tell me something special.

However, the illustrated, the beauty of it brings in so much more emotion as well because

you're literally adding something, you know, a feast for the senses. So it's to be kept out

and the more this book is kept out, you've hit the nail on the head, the more likely it is to

be opened. And I always say to the children, because I've just released a children's book in

doesn't matter if you've time to read it, but when you see it, open it. Because there's magic in

that opening and you will see something, you might just see a word or two, you might just see

a picture, but what it is that you see will be what you need in that moment. Now the science

behind that, the book knows, it's not me that knows, it's you. And you know, magic in all

these amazing, serendipitous, random happenings that we so love in my community and that I live

for every single day. They're just science we can't prove yet. We know that a lot of our world

exists in frequency and that everything that we do is actually electric and alive. And if we

could see it, it would be incredible to watch the connection. So when you pick that book up,

something is happening between you and the brain of which you only use a very small percentage of

and the rest of your brain sees so much more than you know and knows so much more than you

know. You choose the page yourself and you know what it is that you need. And all the book

is doing is putting it in one place for you to be able to do that every day. But the magic

is coming from you. Oh, I love that. So joy does choose you. And it finds you. Yep. So by putting

each of your poems in isolation on a page, it's almost like the Mona Lisa on a wall.

You don't have the distractions of other things so that you can really focus your intention

on reading it and taking what it wants to give to you. And I think you and I have talked

about this before that we're both neurodiverse. And I think that really lends a lot to

but quietening the chaos so that you can deal with one thought at a time instead of many,

many strands of thought. I can see your influence on the way that this book is

illustrated and set out. Yeah, it's so important. You're so right as well.

Because if you're overwhelmed, and that's why I always see that I write the way that I write

chunks. I could go on and on and on about a topic, but I deliberately don't. Because

what your mind needs exactly what you just said, it needs to explore that one thought and to

quieten everything else down. And when we're overwhelmed, the last thing we can do is read

a book. The last thing we can do is take in a lot of information or go into a lot of

depth about something. You need to you need an emergency shot of something, you know, and

you're a busy person, you have a busy life. These are straight to the point, little messages from my soul to yours to remind you what you already know, but to put it in focus and priority today or that particular day.

And I am actually writing a book at the moment, a full book. And this is a quandary for me, because I don't want to lose that open a random page and get something very, very, you know, that jumps straight out at me and grabs me and goes, this is what you need to read right now. So how to do that in a very full book, because I've always, as you said, been very specific about having one small piece

on a blank double page so that you're not reading something else straight away and taking

you away from that thought. It needs time. You need to now go away about your day and let that

little poem, that little quote percolate and marinate and decide what it means in your life

and your world. So yeah, and it does, it works.

Michelle: It absolutely works. Now you have

garnered a lot of very famous fans. And I just want to read a couple of quotes that they

have said about you, because these are big compliments, really big compliments.

Robbie Williams says, if there is a God, Donna is doing her or his work. Well, that's not bad from Robbie. Susannah Constantine.

Michelle and Donna at book event

Donna: Can you imagine my face when I read that? It was a Monday morning and my social media started ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping.

And I thought, what's Monday morning? What on earth could be happening? And he had just

tagged me on Instagram on his Monday morning cuddle club. And he'd written that and he'd

sent all these followers to give me a cuddle. That's what he does. How adorable is that?

How adorable is that? And now I was a take that fan. And when I say a take that fan,

I ditched the first day of sixth year at school as a prefect to go to Glasgow and

queue outside HMV in my school uniform to meet, you know, take that, which was insane.

So, I mean, I was a huge take that. They got me through a very difficult time.

Michelle: They got us all through difficult times, didn't they? Like you, the lyrics just pierced

your soul. The lyrics were what we're all going through, loves and losses and happy

times. And it, you know, it takes you straight back there in many ways, doesn't it? To those

teenage years. He said such lovely things about you. Did you manage to meet him?

Donna: I didn't, no. That's one day.

So I met him once, obviously, when I was 17.

I'm sure he really remembers that! And yeah, you never know. And do you know what? Never

I would just sort of collapse into a puddle. Oh my God. Because not only is it the connection

from my childhood, but it's the community of the women who love take that. We're all

in our forties and fifties now. We get it on impact. You know, we know exactly

what it meant to us. We know what it- it's community, it's bonding, it's connection.

It always comes back to exactly the same thing. And that little, you know, moment in

time is a version of us that lives inside the dolls, you know, the doll inside the

doll, inside the doll, inside the doll. So we connect on that instantly. And it's

the sort of full circle moment, isn't it, of well, I'm an adult now, but that little

doll that lives- I still have that teenage feeling, yeah. Those butterflies.

I'm delighted that Robbie Williams, you know, and yeah, we all just get it

because we've all been there.

Michelle: Well, Davina McCall sent Yellow, your wonderful poem, Yellow, into orbit. She,

huge, huge fan of yours. Also, Bryony Gordon, Dawn French. And I like this

one from Susannah Constantine who said, "some people have the Bible by their bed.

Others, a self-help manual, I have Donna Ashworth."

Donna: I love, honestly, I adore that woman. And do you know what, the most amazing thing

about all of these amazing women who've been kind enough to give me these words

is that they've become friends. And, you know, if you'd have told me that

five years ago, that would have seemed almost impossible. That's, you know,

somebody who's worked for so long and I've been admiring of for so long

and who's so fabulous and so successful. But the reality is they're

just amazing women. And that's why we're so drawn to them on our TVs.

And that's why we buy their books. And that's why we think that we love them

because we do love them. And we all have that feeling, don't we?

I reckon we'd be best friends. If we ever had a chance, I reckon I'd be best

friends with this woman on my telly. And it's true, you would be.

And that's why you admire them because they have all the qualities that you like

in other women. They're just incredible.

Michelle: You are that woman now, Donna. You are the woman that people want to be best friends with.

And I think it helps as well that you're such an empath, that you really get

people and you're very kind. And we've met in person and the first thing you

do is give people a hug. You're just so... Don't ever change, will you?

Donna: I don't think I could. Trust me, I tried for many, many, many years.

You know, I tried to change all the things about me that were too much like

giving everybody a cuddle. But you're not meant to do it.

Well, as you say, acceptance. You have to accept yourself

whether it's for good or for bad. You have to accept if you're going to

live with grief or anxiety or sadness in your life.

And that's the only way that you can live your life, but find the joy to add to it, right?

And I mean, we're all, you know, there's elements of me that are dorky and too much.

And I'm always making funny faces and I'm always doing ridiculous things with my hands.

And I'm never going to be that poised, graceful, you know, ethereal being that

quite frankly would probably be useful to me in the job that I do, you know?

I think it would be intimidating. You just be you, Donna.

I can't help it. I'm always going to be... There's a photo of Davina and I

from a couple of weeks ago when she very kindly brought me onto her stage

on her night with Davina and asked me to read the poem Yellow, which was...

I mean, the best invitation of my year.

And we were so excited to see each other that there's a photo of us

when we're both just doing the most ridiculous...

Like the excitement's too much, so we're just like, you know, we've become

some weird creatures. And it's my favourite photo ever because...

That's real.

I know that feeling when you meet people who you really enjoy.

Like when we met each other in the summer, you know, we've only spoken once or twice,

it's like, I've been dying to properly meet you in real life.

Michelle: Oh, you're so sweet. You are so sweet.

Donna: And it's just joyful to let it go and be...

The trick with everything, Michelle, is to not be afraid to be delighted

and to show that you're delighted, to be easily pleased by everything.

If you can be easily pleased once every hour of every day,

you're winning at life, you know? And some people will look down on you

and say, oh, God, I've just been writing notes to all these women to go with my new book.

And I always put a little heart on the eye of their name.

And I'm 50. And I sit there and I think, isn't it wonderful that I still heart my eyes

to the women in my life that I know will totally appreciate this beautiful little piece

of stationery that I bought that has gold foil on it and this pen that I'm writing with.

And it's a proper love language, but you're also loving your inner child at the same time

by allowing yourself to still, you know, heart your eyes.

And look at your fingernails. People can't see her fingernails,

but they are a rainbow. There's green and pink and red and yellow.

These are from the happy place. They're from the last happy place.

And there's my neon. And every time I look... And do you know what happened yesterday?

So I was driving down this little country road just behind my house,

and there was two women in the middle of this lane. It's a road, but it's really a lane as

well. So you have to give way. And they were both doing that with their nails. They were

looking at each other's nails in the middle of the road. So I had to stop the car and

they were like, oh, oh, oh, sorry. And I just rolled my... Well, pressed the button

window down and went, look at mine. I adore that story. Oh my gosh, it's just gorgeous.

They were really taken aback because I guess that's not really a normal thing to do.

And as I drove away, I thought, oh, that was a bit cringed on it, even for me.

But then I reminded myself that these little things that you do, they will walk away.

And maybe a minute later, they'll go, that was so funny.

Takes a second. It can land awkwardly at first when you tell somebody,

I love your dress or, oh my goodness, your hair. You know, at first they can be

taken aback by it, but that grows in the night when they're alone. That little compliment

takes root and grows. And it also comes from that ADHD impetuous honesty that is hard to hold

back, isn't it? And it's that blurting out of, oh, I love what you're wearing. Or,

oh, I wish I had your skin. Your skin's cool. I must say, I do that quite a lot.

And people look at me like, you're a bit of an odd bird, aren't you? But that's okay.

Michelle: Let's turn to some of your choices. Because how on earth did you choose the ones that went

into the book? You have a lot to choose from. Did you choose every one or did you ask your

publisher to go through it with you? How did you make that choice?

Donna: I asked my lovely editor, Susanna, to choose her favourites. I went through and I chose all the

poems that had gone viral. Because once a poem has been shared a certain amount of times,

it's no longer yours to, you know, it belongs to lots of people who used it in a part of their

life. So whether it was to a friend in need or at a funeral or at a wedding, these are little

moments, but they mean a lot. So every poem that had done that thing went straight in,

no question whether I like it or not. There's a lot of people out there who have used that in

a moment in their life and that's for them. And then my favourites went in.

And of course, as soon as the book went to print, Michelle, I remembered about 10 that I should have put in. Of course I should have put in because they're favourites and sadly they're not in it. But

you have to stop somewhere. And I had to put new ones in.

I didn't want it just to be a collection of the favourites because, you know, this book is beautifully designed, but it's a bit more expensive than my other books and I'm always aware of that. And I want

to make sure that people get, you know, for their money, if they're going to use their money

to buy a book of mine, I want it to be really, really worth it and really have as much as I

can get in it. So I wanted new ones in there for people who know all of my work and are

waiting on new ones. But yeah, it was a tough choice.

Michelle: I can only imagine. Do you ever worry that you might run out of words?

Donna: Oh, never. I did at one point, there was one point

where I was doing three books on the same day. They were coming out on the same day.

Life, Love and Loss came out three books on one day. And I look back and I think,

why did I do that? That was bonkers. Because I was fighting myself for a place in the charts,

which was just silly. That is silly, isn't it? Really silly. What you live and you learn.

And I wondered what if I'm throwing too much out at once and, you know, I might run out. But

as with everything in life, you change. Every few months, you're a different version of you.

Your life is in a different stage. Your children are at a different stage. Your friends are at a

different stage. Everything is constantly evolving and growing. So there is always

a new perspective, maybe even on the same topic, because you're coming at it from a

different phase and you're a different version. So I might write about the same topic over and

over again. And it will appeal to different people each time I do it because they're in

the same phase as me at that point, or they feel the same way. So I don't think I'm ever

going to run out because everybody keeps giving me lots of inspiration. Well, here's one

thing that I picked up on Empty Nest. That's in there. And of course, that's a new phase,

perhaps, of your life as your children have grown up and started to leave the home.

Michelle: And that will resonate because we're all of us. I'm older than you, but we're all of that

age. And as we go through that iteration of our children needing us less and then actually

moving out of the house, Empty Nest is a really beautiful poem. So yes, as you get

older and perhaps as you become a grandmother, you'll be looking at things in a different

perspective through different spectacles.

Donna: And I don't have an empty nest. It's not here for me yet. I wrote that poem about five years ago when I definitely didn't have an empty nest. But again, it's with the overthinking. I have always been the type of person who wherever I am, I can see how that's going to feel in a year, two years,

five years, ten years, which can be very overwhelming if your brain's giving you all

at once. But once you write it down, it clears that out of your brain and you think, you know,

that is for another day. I've explored it. I've had a little cry. I read Empty Nest

yesterday to make a video on it. It made me cry. And both my kids have cried too.

But again, that is, you know, the conundrum of motherhood and any kind of love. You

always remind yourself what a gift it is in this moment. And if you're not reminding yourself of

that, you should be. And I don't use the word shoot lightly, but that is one thing you should

be doing, reminding yourself how lucky we are in every phase. If you've got the person that

you love here, no matter what phase, whether it's a tough one or a golden one, you know,

it's still a gift.

Michelle: Well, I wonder, Donna, if I could finish up with one question and then

beg you to read one poem, if you don't mind. But what do you read? What's on your bedside table?

Donna: Well, that's an easy question. You Can Heal Your Life by Louise Hay. Very good.

I don't actually even read this book. And actually, one of my friends, she's a

bookstagrammer who has become a friend through her buying my books, bought me a beautifully

illustrated edition of this. I don't have it to hand, sadly, which I will treasure forever.

So Louise Hay, when I was 17, saved my life. And that's that end of story. So her voice lives

in my brain. I don't even have to read this because it's in me. And her affirmations flow

through my mind constantly. Sometimes I'm pretty sure she speaks to me from the other side.

In fact, I know she does. So her book, Just to Have It Near, reminds me that it's near.

And the energy of this book just, you know, is important to me. So Anything by Louise Hay,

Anything by Louise Hay will bring you something vital.

Michelle: Well, Anything by You will bring you something vital. And I wonder if I might persuade you,

as it is the title of the book, would you be kind enough to read Joy Chose You?

Donna: I would love to. this time, it's beautifully illustrated, which I do think adds something

lovely to this poem. So here we go. This one is called Joy Chose You.

Joy does not arrive with a fanfare on a red carpet, strewn with the flowers of a perfect life. Joy sneaks in as you pour a cup of coffee, watching the sunlight hit your favourite tree just right. And you usher joy away because you're not ready for her.

Your house is not as it should be for such a distinguished guest. But joy, you see, cares nothing for your messy home or your bank balance or your waistline. Joy is supposed to flip through the cracks of your imperfect life. That's how joy works. You cannot truly invite her. Not really. You can only be ready when she appears and hug her with meaning.

Because in this very moment, Joy Chose You.

Michelle: I love it. It's so beautiful. And it does remind us that we forget to notice those

joyful moments.

Donna: We do. And just one sort of final thing. There is a lot to be said for choosing

joy and seeking joy. But the reality is we forget to be just me. And as you are in that

state of just being, that's when you're most open to receiving the real true joys,

which are the real simple joys. They are the things that are free. They are the things

are easy. They're the things that are all around, which we are not seeing when we are

choosing joy in the big things. You know, we're chasing it. We're booking nights out.

We're booking holidays. We're trying to create joy. And actually, joy doesn't need

any of that stuff. It just needs you to have your eyes open and to be quiet sometimes so

that she can sneak in.

Michelle: Well, Donna Ashworth, thank you so much for joining me again.

And this book is out now. It is called Joy Chose You. It is an absolutely gorgeous,

gorgeous present for anybody for Christmas or just at any time in their lives. You know,

you're sending a message to someone that you really care if you give them a Donna

Ashworth book. That is for sure. Thank you so much. Lovely to see you.

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You can find more from Donna Ashworth here.

Her book is available from Amazon here.

Listen to the episode on Spotify here or on Apple Podcasts here