This is the transcript from my conversation with The Divorce Coach, Sara Davison. I felt her advice was so valuable I wanted to share it here. With 'silver divorce' rates rising, there may be a time you or a friend might need signposting. Please recommend this episode with Sara or read it here, share it and use the resources listed at the bottom. If you find it helpful please review on any podcast platform as it will help others find it too.
Michelle:
So, Sara, I'm so excited to actually have you in the studio. I mean, normally that's Liz's seat and it's been cold for a while now. So it's really nice to have somebody in my little studio shed. my God, I love it here. It's so pretty. It's just absolutely beautiful. So I'm very excited to be here with you today. Fabulous. Thank you. Right. Well, you know why I've invited you here today. It's really to talk about...divorce in midlife.
So when our kids leave the nest and we hit menopause and we're in midlife it's a bit of a perfect storm isn't it and we may look at our husbands and think 'ow, he's really boring’! Or we may look at him and think, I really don't like the way he treats me. This is not right. Or we might think, what on earth have we got in common? So I personally wouldn't have a clue what to do if my husband, please don't do this James, if my husband came home one day and said, you know what, this isn't working out. I want a divorce.
Sorry, what do I do? What are the first things I need to consider?
Sara:
Well, you know, it's a really common worry for a lot of people. I think, you know, you're spot on there. A lot of people do worry about it because there isn't, well, there hasn't been much information about what do you do. And it is one of the most traumatic life experiences we go through. Like, it's just a fact. It is actually the second most traumatic experience we go through after death of a loved one. And that empty nester situation you talk about when the kids leave is a very common time for couples to sort of stare across the breakfast table at each other and sort of think, okay, well now we're not talking about the kids and you're not rushing off to take them to school and I'm not rushing off to take them to a sports club. What are we talking about? Do I want to be doing this going forward?
Michelle:
And you've potentially got decades to go, haven't you? It's not like the old days when...
you know, we kind of died around the age of 75, we're all living longer. So we might be with, you know, Joe Bloggs until we're 95.
Sara:
Exactly, exactly. So it is a big shift. And I think that is why that bracket, that age group does see an increase in divorce, because it is a vulnerable time for a relationship, because the whole setup of how it works has changed. And that's not to say it always happens, but there is obviously that vulnerability there.
So yes, what do you do? Well, first of all, I think don't panic. It happens. And there are now lots of different things you can do to support yourself and also to figure out a way forward. So first of all, I would reach out to friends and family who can look after you and create that breakup support team, having a group of people around you that can hold you up, who genuinely care about you, who will be there during this really challenging emotional roller coaster for you will actually be essential. So picking those people carefully though is really important.
Michelle:
Well supposing they're really disappointed that you're getting divorced. Supposing, you know, your own mother loves their son -in -law and is really gutted that this marriage is going to be breaking up and your kids are picking one side or the other and that might not be a fair pick. It might not be justifiable. You might be seen as the bad guy.
Sara:
Yeah, absolutely. A lot of times...you don't want to necessarily tell your kids everything that's happened or maybe if someone's had an affair because it's a difficult line, isn't it? It's an adult relationship depending on the age of your children. If they've left home, then obviously they're adults. But I think a lot of times people don't want to bring their kids in. But then the downside of that is them not realizing that actually one or other has had an affair or something has happened, which maybe does in some people's eyes make them the bad person. But then again, there's lots of reasons why relationships break down. And quite often an affair is the end of many years of bad communication or no communication or resentments just stacking up over time. So quite often also our family are just as angry with that person as we are and that can also fuel that fire.
So we've got to be careful that we're not spending time around people that are actually making it a little bit worse rather than better. That's true, it's like taking to the cleaners, you know, all that sort of toxicity, which is not good for anybody, is it? You know.
Ultimately, you do want to move on with your lives in an amicable fashion if that's possible. If not just for yourselves, but for your children. Yeah, and I think that's key. You've got to put the kids first where you can, obviously put them first so that you manage how they are dealing with it. Because even as an adult child, the impact of a divorce, your parents divorcing can be pretty harsh. People talk about younger kids and how that can impact them.
And again, divorce, there's two ways of looking at it. And I'm quite vocal that divorce doesn't have to damage children. I don't believe that's a set thing. I think actually it very much depends on the parents and how you help that child process that information. Because in some ways it can be a very valuable life lesson that actually we don't always get that fairy tale ending. And that sometimes when we don't, it's okay to be upset and to go through those negative emotions. That's part of life. Life always throws us those curve balls or challenges.
But it's then giving them the tools to pick themselves back up. And as a parent, you can be the role model, we will be, like it or not. How you react to those difficult situations in life will be what your kid learns as coping mechanisms. So if you can use this as a chance to stay strong for your kids, which often as parents, we'll do more for them than we will for ourselves.
You know, without the kids, maybe we'd stay in bed and cry and eat crisps. Maybe that's just me. But, you know, with kids there, and my son was one when my husband left me. So, you know, I had to get up, otherwise he couldn't move. He couldn't eat. You know, I had to change him. So there were all those things. So again, quite often, if we've got the mission that actually we're going to turn this into a positive lesson for our kids to say, look, sometimes things don't work out. Yes, it's tough. And we're not going to hide that because stuffing down negative emotions again, teaches them not to talk about things or to deny those emotions, which again can be damaging and lead to consequences later on in life. So we process those emotions and give them some healthy coping mechanisms like, you know, five star jumps or exercise or talking about things or creating a plan to move them forwards and learning that they can control how they feel. A lot of people don't know that, that they can choose how they react.
And yes, something bad may have happened and yes, it's normal to feel sad or devastated or angry, but we can dial down all those negative emotions ourselves. So giving them those toolkits to be able to change how they feel, take their power back, be in control. Imagine learning that as a kid or even a young adult. That's life -changing. In all kinds of situations.
Michelle:
Yeah. And of course, you know, kids get older and graduate, get married, have children and chances are that ex -partner is still going to be around at those milestone moments. So again, for the sake of all the family and the future family, somehow you've got to rise above it and handle it with some sort of dignity.
Sara:
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it's very difficult to be around someone that has hurt you, let you down, betrayed you. Even if it's amicable, there can be resentments that maybe you didn't get that sort of fairy tale ending that you'd planned together. And I think, you know, the later on in life you are, you know, it can be more challenging to sort of change direction or to reinvent yourself, but it's definitely possible. Like you said, you know, people are, you know, living longer, we've got more energy and like, you know, fifties, you know, it's not old anymore, sixties not old anymore. So again, there's so many chances to actually the marriage rate for the, what we call silver splitters, which is the over fifties, that bracket, the marriage rate is actually going up for second marriage, second or third marriages. Yes, which is interesting because, you know, the younger generations are not looking to marriage anymore. There's a lot more options like polyamory and all these other things which probably weren't there so blatantly when we were younger.
Michelle:
But now the marriage rate, people are not giving up. They're not going blue rinse and slippers like they did maybe back in my grandparents age. We know there's that community in the middle of Florida where they've got the highest rate of STDs and it's a retirement village. I know that some pharmacy companies are actually testing out their STD drugs there because they've got such a big demographic to try it out on. So yeah, life is not over by any stretch of the imagination. You will get through it. But in those first, if we can bring it back to like, what do we do? So.
I literally, I wouldn't know how to choose a divorce lawyer. I wouldn't know how much it cost. I wouldn't know how to find the money because I know I'm just basically, as I was telling you earlier, I'm kind of lazy. But I'm also disinterested and I'm lucky I completely, don't we all trust until we don't trust? Who helps you with that? Who holds your hand and tells you what to do to get it right?
Sara:
So there's lots of different ways to get divorced and it really very much depends on what kind of divorce you're having. So a lot of people say, well, do I need a lawyer? No, you don't actually need a lawyer to get divorced. No, there's so many ways of doing it now. You can do it online even. There's ways where you can go to people who aren't actually lawyers, but they can help you navigate the paperwork you need to do. We've now got no fault divorce, which is brilliant because now we don't have to allocate blame to the other side before, even if it was amicable.
Did you know we had to actually write a list of things that we didn't like about the partner?
Michelle:
Which really helps the outcome, doesn't it? It doesn't help anything. He snores, he's a pig, he doesn't pick up.
Sara:
Yeah, exactly. It's crazy. So that was never a good start. So now we don't have that anymore. So it's a lot more straightforward to get divorced. So you don't need to, but that doesn't mean to say that getting legal advice isn't a good idea at the get -go, especially if you don't know much about the process of getting divorced - having at least one session with somebody to actually explain what the process looks like from the legal perspective, like what hoops you need to go through, what paperwork you need to do. That can also be a good way of doing it, but it's very, very expensive to go with lawyers and you don't necessarily need to do that. So there are other companies like Amicable who you can do it online and you can reach out. So there's a lot of resources now that never existed before. And the difference is, you know, someone like Amicable would be a couple of thousand pounds to get divorced.
If you get into a difficult divorce where you're not agreeing, you won't be able to go through those amicable ways. So if there's a lot of conflict, if there's toxic relationship, then lawyers probably will be the way you need to go. It may be possible to use mediation, which means that you sort of work out around a table. Again, it doesn't work particularly well for abusive relationships, but then neither does the court system always. Right, you should get onto that as well.
Yeah, toxic relationships, my specialist area. Goodie. Goodie. Lucky me. Yes, but I definitely think getting some legal advice up front is usually a good idea just to understand where you're going. Now you asked a really good question about how do I choose a lawyer? This is really important and much more important than most people think because the lawyer you choose will set the tone for your divorce.
So there are lawyers out there that have reputations that will be the pit bull in the ring. And if your partner, your ex finds out that you've instructed a pit bull lawyer, then you're in for a hell of a ride. Cause they will go for somebody - And it's gonna be conflict from the get go. Yeah. And what does conflict mean in a divorce? Conflict means emotional stress and turmoil and potentially trauma and high expenses, like financially very, very expensive. Yeah. I, I, my personal divorce, I know many, many clients I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of thousands to get divorced. We don't need to be doing that when you've got other ways that can be 1500 quid to 3000, you know, so there are ways. So think about it carefully. You may be very angry, very hurt, but that doesn't, you know, you're not going to necessarily get justice through the system. They don't care if your partner had an affair, by the way, that's irrelevant. They will just look at the finances and work out what the legal, what you're legally entitled to.
So understanding what you're legally entitled to is where that legal advice comes in very handy as well. So not only do you know the process and what sort of boxes you need to tick, but also what you're legally entitled to is also a good way. So if you can have one or two sessions with a lawyer, I would find somebody that suits the style that you are comfortable with.
Do not go for the person your best friend got divorced with because she got on well with her. Right, okay. That's not necessary. Sometimes that might be a good fit for you. But for example, if they had a very amicable divorce and say it was just the average sort of salary base and there weren't many assets and that worked for her, great. If you're the same as that, then there's a likelihood that will work for you. But if you have huge amounts of assets and very high conflict, I would pretty much say that there are better suited lawyers who specialise in that area. So there's lawyers that specialise in children or finance or international issues. So if you have properties over the world, certain lawyers will have specialist areas in that.
So again, look for the lawyer that suits what you need because once you've instructed someone, not necessarily for the first one or two sort of initial advice sessions, but once you instruct someone and they're your lawyer for the whole process, you're kind of stuck with them in the fact that if you've got somebody else to start, if you weren't happy and you swapped, that lawyer would charge - catch up, yeah, more money, more money.
Michelle:
Yeah, huge. But I mean, is it like a directory? I would - If I choose people I often go by their face. I'm not gonna lie, I do. Kind face, you know, nice surgeon, looks like they'd be fun to be around, I'd probably go for them. How do I like go through a directory and choose a lawyer? I mean I suppose you could have a preference for going for a female or a male, that's kind of easy. Location, tick box, and maybe subject area, but it's gonna be quite the relationship, isn't it? You want to really, really trust and know that they're the right person for you and you don't want to do that several times over and rack up the cost.
Sara:
Yeah, I mean, that's where getting advice from somebody that knows the selection and has already got a network will really save you time and money. I mean, obviously, if you go to a breakup or divorce coach who works in that field, they're going to have ideas of what will help you. For me, when I refer clients, I always refer to or through three different lawyers, because again, it's very much down to personality. I never recommend anyone because again, it's...you never know how that case is going to go. But we can suggest people that we know work and specialise in certain fields. So it might be that there's two or three different people you can have that initial phone call with. And a lot of lawyers will do that initial chat for free. Those that don't, I'll be a little bit careful of. It might just be because they're really good and busy, but sometimes, you know, you just need to be careful because you can find lawyers who will chat to you for half an hour just to get that fee. So if you're a good fit, I'd recommend doing that.
And then when you found that person that you know has the ability to do the kind of cases that yours will be, then again if it's a good fit with you and you like them then that's another good case.
Michelle:
So someone like you, a divorce coach who I'd never come across until we connected through social media and you came to the International Women's event and so on we got chatting more, I'd never really heard of a divorce coach but that is probably money worth spending to be directed into the right way and to at least find your way initially.
Sara:
Yeah, I mean, a lot of people don't realise the emotional impact of a divorce and they will go straight for a lawyer, straight for a financial advisor. I'm not, you know, those two are good additions to have on your support team, as well as family and friends, as well as a coach. But yes, a coach can save you a lot of money because the other thing with lawyers is they will take your phone calls between nine and five usually about what the latest thing your ex has done to upset you. So you can be crying on the phone. You can be upset.
And they will be there because they're, you know, a lot of them are really nice people and they'll be there to reassure, but that's not actually empowering you with any tools to deal with those emotions. And what it is doing is it's ticking up their annual, their hourly rate as you go. So it's a very expensive way to get emotional support.
Michelle:
Yeah. They're not therapists, are they?
Sara:
Well, that's the bottom line. They are lawyers, not therapists. So if you want to be guided through the emotional journey, that's more of a coach. It definitely is a coach. And...
and a specialist coach in this field as well. Generic coaching, you know, as breakup and divorce coaches, and I have a training school, we're trained over, gosh, I think 600 coaches now in 27 different countries. So.
Michelle:
It’s incredible what you've done, it really is.
Sara;
thank you. I mean, it came from, this is everything I wish I'd had when I was going through my divorce, because I was that person you described. My husband's cheated on me. I didn't see it coming. I kind of left a lot of the personal finance to him because we had a global business together at the time. So I was busy running that. My son was only one. So I was pretty much a full -time mum and a full -time, you know, career running a company as well. So it's combining everything and it hit me like a freight train. I didn't see it coming. I didn't expect it. Saying that though, there's definitely warning signs that I totally ignored. Yeah. But, but you know, having been through that, I thought, right, well, there must be someone to talk to. So where do I go? And just like you asked me, Michelle, there was nothing apart from therapy and counseling, which, I'd already been coaching for about 15 years anyway so I just thought well I tried it didn't really help me I needed something a lot more specific so yeah that's where we come in.
Michelle:
Honestly all these things cost money don't they? I think a lot of couples especially during this cost of living crisis are just staying together because they can't afford it. I mean now I did not realise that divorce could be done online or through it was amicable. I didn't realise it could be done cheaper.
But even so, £2 ,000 right now when fuel is high and everything is costing such a lot, people probably staying in pretty nasty toxic relationships and maybe living in two separate bedrooms in the house because splitting that house, splitting all the proceeds is going to be far too expensive to go and then get two separate places to live.
And talking of which, does your partner have to be honest about all the finance. It must be really easy to hide money. Who finds out, who's the forensic person who goes in there and like, I don't think you're, I think you're telling ‘porkies’ here. I think there's more than one bank account and there's probably more money in shares and things like that that you don't know about. How do you find it?
Sara:
It’s very, very difficult, which is why...before, if it's you deciding to leave or you're being suspicious that your partner might be about to leave you, there is some groundwork to do getting your ducks in a row because there's certain things that you would, I would suggest as a coach that maybe your lawyer wouldn't be able to suggest that you would be doing to get as much information about your financial situation before you say, you're having an affair, I'm going, or you need to get out because that's when it's too late. You know, be smart. Be very smart. So read the clues and be a detective.
in your own relationship, not just about is he, you know, seeing Mildred from the office or whoever it is, but you've got to start, do you want me to pay that bill or, you know, or just looking at what's coming through, you know, what's coming, what statements, you know, in the wallet, are there lots of different cards or just one card, you know, those sorts of things, just getting an idea because.
Even if you say, well, I thought we had an NattWest account or I'm sure we had a Barclayy card or American Express. If those aren't showing up on the disclosure, then of course you can go back and say, your client knows that you have this. And if you've got the number of the cards that you might just have had, then again, you can say, well, we've got this card with this number, can you tell us about this account? So again, you can do that. But if it's already happened, there are people that have that forensic accountant title that can dive in and pull the threads because they will have to share bank statements. The challenge is that quite often money's moved so fast and the cost of a forensic accountant is staggering. I mean, it's not cheap. So again, to have somebody going through everything, looking at everything by which time if they're clever, then they can, and if it's intentional, they're doing it, it's quite easy to bounce it offshore and move it a few times. And then it's very hard to find anyway.
So again, there are people that will do that. Your law firm will be able to recommend, you know, those people are out there as well as coaches. I'm connected with lots and so are all my coaches, but it's something that is a very expensive thing to do. So I would always say, keep your eyes open if you're, and it's always, you know, even if you're happily married, it's good to have an idea of, well, you know, these are all the bank accounts that I know of because then if they disclose those, there'll be threads if there's transfers into other accounts. So that's where the forensic accountant can really dive in.
Michelle:
I talked about this with Alice Beer actually quite a few months ago about, and this was more to do with supposing you're, you found yourself suddenly single or divorced or bereaved. Yeah. Do you know where stuff is? So actually doing an audit trail and sitting down with your partner and say,
you know what, I'm probably not pulling my weight here and if anything happened to you I wouldn't know where the passwords are, I wouldn't know where the accounts are, can we make an appointment together, can we schedule a meeting where we just do this and we make sure the kids are all occupied and we sit down, I just want to make sure that I can help you and that the kids are secure, I'm secure if you got knocked down by a bus tomorrow or you might want to know about my accounts, you know all the stuff I've been squirreling away on the side.
Sara:
So that's not a bad idea to do that prep and even more so if you suspect that there's disinterest or bad behavior or a potentially looming separation and then divorce. I would say yes in most cases but definitely not if it's a toxic relationship. So if your partner is abusive in any way then disclosing your plans, you're showing your cards so you're basically saying I want to know what you're doing. And for them, they will take that and use that information against you. So they'll probably start closing things down or moving things faster. So remember that they need to be in control at all times. So yes, in a healthy relationship, you can sit down and have that appointment and have that conversation. Absolutely. That would be the best way to go. But if you think your partner that might trigger anger, or they might get very judgmental of you, or they might get cross or that it might be a negative reaction, then this is something that I would take upon yourself.
Michelle:
That is such a good point, Sara. I didn't even think about that, but I mean, I know that you have had more experience in sort of being with narcissistic... I can never say it, you say it for me. Narcissistic. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Being with that partner or in the domestic sort of abuse, coercion, control sort of arena. And what do people do? Like, God, I feel for you. I feel for women who are stuck in a relationship that they have no idea how to get out of, or they don't realise it's as toxic, that's what they're used to, it's the way they've always been talked to and controlled and pushed around. You have a lot of experience in coaching women. What can you sort of tell us about that?
Sara:
Well, it's very normal to minimalise, as you say, and normalise bad behaviour because if we didn't, we'd probably have to face some pretty hard truths.
And I know that in my, I've had several toxic relationships, but there were always red flags. There were always warning signs. Difficult people, let's call them that because the N word, the narcissistic word is, well, one difficult to pronounce, but two, I think, you know, there's too much focus on labelling them and where the focus needs to be to move through these is on ourselves to move ourselves through. So, you know, it's a difficult one to do, but I suggest definitely taking your power back is the first step.
But yeah, there are always red flags.
Michelle:
Taking your power back, what do you mean by that though?
Sara:
Well, when you're in a relationship that is highly controlling, you feel like you have no power. And one of the, well, lots of tactics will be to reduce your confidence, reduce the fact, they'll say you'll never survive on your own. No one would ever love you the way I love you. Yeah, you've got no value, you don't bring anything. You live on the streets, you'd lose contact with the kids. That you'd have all those fears, which makes it very difficult to leave. So it's not a case of they're treating me badly, I must leave. There's...You know, very often you're isolated and you're financially dependent on them and you won't know where everything is. They will have all the control over the money in most cases. So again, trying to build up your own supply of money so that if you did leave suddenly and they did cut off all bank accounts, then you would still have access to something to survive at least and maybe pay a legal bill. That would be essential, I would say for sure.
Michelle:
Are there like support services that you could reach out to and just say, this is it, this is the situation I find myself in. I would like to open a bank account but I don't have much sort of ID and thing. Is there like, well I suppose there'd be domestic abuse charities and things that you might be able to approach and say please help me.
Sara:
Yeah, so first point of call if you think you're in danger or you're worried that you may be in a toxic relationship, I would call your local domestic abuse charity. There are lots of very, very good charities in this country in the UK. We are ahead of the curve on domestic abuse support with charities. And I'm lucky enough to be the patron of the Dash Charity, which covers the Maidenhead Slam Windsor area. But there's Women's Aid, actually my charity falls underneath that banner as well. But there's lots and lots of different support. So reach out to them. The great thing about domestic abuse charities is they will believe you.
They will believe you. You don't have to prove it. They will listen. They will also do a risk assessment. And then they're also very well connected with your local area with that police. They could put you on the alert list, social services, housing, if you need to leave. The DASH charity have refuge. A lot of charities will have refuges where you can flee to if you needed to. But even if you just wanted to get that advice of, is this a toxic relationship? They can help you with that as kind of specialist coach as well. I mean, that's what we do because it's what I wish I'd had when I was going through mine. So that's when I studied it and I worked at my own plan or how to cope with these people because post separation abuse is often a lot worse than when you're with them. And a lot of people say, and in fact, my lawyer said to me, well, now you're not living with them anymore. You'll be fine. And I, you know, it'll get better. It doesn't. And think about it this way. As you pull away from them, they want more control.
But because you're not gonna ramp it up. Yeah, and because you're not physically with them all the different ways they used to control you that they're much more limited. The only way they can control you through that divorce process with the children and the finances. So that means that process all the gaslighting all the lying all the confusing behaviour, all the manipulation will be focused very much on those things and your children are a big pain point and they'll know that. And so that's one of the big issues they'll go for that we see.
and also finances, they'll go for that too. So cutting off money, making you worry about money, hiding money, all those things are very common tactics, which is why divorcing a toxic ex is so much harder. There's no fair compromise. You're not looking, yeah, you might have some conflict over who gets the piano and how often you see the cat, but actually with an abuser, there's no compromise. It's all about causing as much suffering as possible and ultimately total annihilation is their agenda.
Michelle:
Evil, evil. How do you spot a non? Here we go. I'm gonna give it one more go. How do you spot a narcissist?
Sara;
Well, there's lots of telltale signs, but to be able to spot them, you have to take off the rose tinted glasses because it's very clever. It's hard when you're in love. Well, that's the thing. Love bombing feels so good, Michelle. It feels amazing. You feel like you're the most incredible person. Love bombing. Yeah.
like showering you with gifts or even just compliments, grandiose declarations that you'll never be lonely again and they'll always look after you. So they make you feel safe. They put you on a pedestal. They treat you in an incredible way. And you think, gosh, this is too good to be true. And it is. Yes, and it is. But in that moment, you don't want it to end and you're really not going to listen. Who would? Who would? Like everybody wants to be treated like a princess and put on a pedestal. Yeah.
And this is what you've been waiting for, right? You've been waiting for that and then it happens. And then you're like, I finally found the one. This is what love is. And so you fall in love with the person, which is the perception that they're giving you, but the reality isn't that person. So what happens is we get hooked in this ideal person that we think exists, but the reality is they don't. And over time, as you're, they isolate you. So they may say,
It won't necessarily be blatant. It might be, do we have to see your parents this weekend? Do you know, I quite fancy just spending some more time with you or do you think she's really a good friend? Because I'm not sure, I'm not sure she is. You know, so it's those other things. Not for me, but yes, I've heard these things. And it's so difficult to help people when people externally spot those signs.
Michelle:
We were mentioning a little earlier that there's many parents who with wisdom and being outside of that relationship can spot these narcissistic relationships, started the coercive, the control. And there's many parents who find it really, really difficult to know what to do. And I have to say, I've been one of them. And I've had thousands of miles between me and my daughter worried to death about the way that she had been, exactly what you say, taken away from her friends until she's got...really nobody to talk to, nobody who says, come on, that's not how someone should treat you or why are you in Friday, Saturday, Sunday? You know, you're young and you're 20s, why aren't you out having fun? This is ridiculous because they are so removed. And then I guess it starts that they're told, well, no one would want to be with you anyway because you're boring and you don't even fold laundry in the right way. And it just is a gradual break down and break down and break down of any kind of value that you feel about yourself.
Sara:
Yeah and you're so right they don't show up on day one as they are on the last day of the relationship because if they did no one would get into that relationship. No. You'd run but because it's...
Michelle:
And I think that's important actually, it's alright to say that it's not stupidity. No. It's these people are manipulative and very very clever even if they don't realise how clever they are but it's every kind of woman can be susceptible to this. And it doesn't matter whether you're the smartest person ever or the dumbest on the block. It's not you, it's them. They're the ones doing it.
Sara:
And obviously it does happen to men as well. I have clients who are male who are dealing with it, but predominantly it is a gender specific issue, right? However, I have a friend called Carla, who you may know, so I'm not gonna mention her last name, but she's brilliant. She's one of my best friends and I love her to death, but Carla could never get into a toxic relationship. The reason being that Carla will tell someone to sling their hook if she doesn't get nice dinners, treated well, so that all the, you know, that everything that she wants, she wouldn't, she would, she'd just say, no, if anyone said anything that was slightly unkind or made her feel uncomfortable, she'd be like, no, go away, I'm not interested. So you have to be a highly empathetic person to get into these relationships. We are generally people pleasers.
Michelle:
We like to fix things. We don't like conflict, so we'll avoid it. So we'll just allow that boundary to be removed because maybe they called us a name or talked to us in a certain way or raised their voice in a restaurant. Little things will think, well, you know what? They've had a bad day. I get it. Or their dad was on the phone earlier causing them some problems. So don't worry, I'll suck that up so they don't need to worry. But before you know it, all your boundaries are slowly being eroded and then that behaviour becomes acceptable. That's normalised, isn't it?
Sara:
Yeah, it's now normal and it's very hard to reverse because you've accepted it for so long. So if you don't stand on it like Carla would at the first day and say, no, you're off, then again, so again, it's a highly empathetic people, people that want to fix, so vulnerable people. People who want to fix…
Michelle:
So often, from what I've seen, it's the broken wing syndrome. It's like, he needs me. I'm the only one who can help him through this because he's showing his vulnerability. And all of a sudden that vulnerability becomes weaponised in a way that, well, now I can't leave him either because he needs me. Even though that's the, he'll call me rubbish and I don't add value, but on the other hand, he's, you know, poor him.
Sara:
But there's the cycle, which is addictive. So everything will be great. Remember they have that ability to give you the perception of being the most incredible relationship, which it will be to the outside world at all times. But behind closed doors, there'll be something that happens that triggers unacceptable behaviour. So whatever kind of abuse that could be, and there's a whole range of abuses. And then, you know, as you pull back, you say, I can't tolerate that. This is not okay with me. Then they start what's called a hoovering. Have you heard that? (No, I haven’t)
So hoovering is when they sort of suck you back in with good behaviour. It could be like, you know, I'm so sorry. Or they cry or they can say, it didn't happen that way. You're confused. I didn't do that. (Michelle - Gaslighting). Yes. Yeah. So then you think, well, maybe maybe it was me then. Okay. Well, then let's get back on. And then they're being normal and they act like nothing happened. And of course, we don't want to rock the boat, do we? We want to go.
Okay, we're on stable ground. And then they're amazing. You think, this is what I fell in love with. But it is walking on eggshells until the next thing happens and then you repeat. So that's the problem. You're going round and round and round in that cycle. Well, I've heard many women say, well, you know, it'd be the last straw if they hit me. Honestly, if they hit me, that would be, I'm gone. But it's way before that. And actually, a lot of coercive controllers, not as just...
They don't necessarily resort to physical abuse, do they? They don't need to because they've got that earworm in your brain thinking that you're no good and nobody else would have you anyway. They don't actually need to slap you around. So you never get to that stage like, if they hit me, I'm gone, I'm out of there. Yeah. Do you know that there is a really scary statistic though here in the UK, not a lot of people know, is that 30 % of domestic homicides in the UK happen within three months of separation and over 80 % of those homicides as murders, there has never been any physical abuse before. It's coercive control.
Yeah, and it stacks up because you're losing control. So that's when it can shift. So just because - As you said, it magnifies and then it wrapped, but that makes people too scared to leave. Well, you have to be very careful. And this is, and actually, yes, I'm glad this has come up because if you suddenly say, I'm leaving, you're putting yourself in a danger zone because they will want their control.
That's why getting your domestic abuse charity on site, so they've done a risk assessment, they understand, they're there on hand. Also, if you can get a specialist coach other like me or a therapist, if you can find one who specialises in domestic abuse, we will help you get your ducks in a row, which is even more important. You need to make sure you've got somewhere to go. You need to know you'll be safe, the kids will be safe. You need to know that you've got some financial, sort of something to fall back on because divorcing somebody like that is not a straightforward process. It is very, very difficult.
And court does not give you justice in this country. I campaign a lot of government level on this because the family court system actually re -traumatises over 82 % of domestic abuse survivors. So -
Michelle:
Is that because you have to justify what happened and you ought to go through it all again? And, you know, will I be believed and will he be in the court with me and see me and stare me down? Is it that -
Sara:
Well, I would like to say yes, that's it. But unfortunately, it's a very corrupt system and that there's a lot of misogyny. There's not enough education or understanding or willingness to be open to domestic abuse. If you say you're a victim of abuse, quite often you have to prove it, that the onus is on you. You're not innocent until proven guilty. You have to, you have to really, there's a lot of work that needs to go on. And also,
Unfortunately, if you have money as a perpetrator, you can go a long way through the family courts and it doesn't always, well, very rarely ends in justice from what I've seen from clients all over the world, actually. It's not just our courts here. So there is a real issue with that. And also with court so -called experts, there's so many issues, especially if you're divorcing someone, you've got children under the age of 16. Again, do take specialist advice before you get into that because...
I don't know if you've heard that there are a lot of children that are being removed from victims of abuse and handed to perpetrators. So in this country, we have a real issue and people wouldn't believe it goes on today, but it does, unfortunately. So again, getting your ducks in a row first, getting that advice and it might sound scary, but there is a really positive upside to this. You can come out and regain control in a safe way and rebuild your life and come back stronger and more confident and happier than ever. There are things you can do. And I've dedicated my life to getting those tools out to people because that's what I wish I'd had when I went through it and they work and we've shared them with now millions of people around the world. And that to me is my mission for being even here and having been dragged through that. I remember being in Sydney in Australia outside our Australian office. I just had this epiphany that I was like, you know what, just found out he'd had an affair, just found out that she was pregnant.
And also Michelle, she was 12 years younger than me and stunningly beautiful. Those two things do not help either, I can tell you. You're stunningly beautiful, he's an idiot. thank you. But you could kind of look and go, yeah, it's obvious upgrade, kind of get it. But anyway, you know, and I'm confident, you know, we all have that.
Michelle:
Well, I mean, go back to midlife, that's exactly what happens, you know, when, you know, perhaps your libido is rather lower and a younger woman has a higher libido and perhaps she tells your bloke with thinning hair and a big paunch how gorgeous he is.
Sara:
Exactly, there's tactics involved for sure. But yeah, at that moment I was like, you know what, I'm not being dragged through this just to go through the paint. I need to turn this into something that helps other people. I think that's been a lot of my recovery, but being able to talk about how people can specifically recover from that and how to navigate that divorce process.
Michelle;
And even amicable divorces are tough because you're reinventing yourself. You've got to rediscover your own identity. I mean, be married for 30 years, you're not the same person. Dating is totally different now. It's totally different. I've heard a lot of women choose women partners. I think it's a safer bet in a lot of cases. It's not the ideal world, is it really? Well, I think that's a really positive way to end this chat. I could, and I am going to carry on chatting to you for ages after this. But I think that's, I think what I'm taking away from this is do your research, get help, get support.
Find yourself a charity if you need it. Know that there is help out there and you can have a good life after divorce. And I think they need to find you, Sara. So where will listeners be able to find your website, read your book and find your podcast?
Sara:
thank you. So my website's saradavison.com. That's easy. Yeah. Instagram, Sara Davison Divorce Coach. And I post a lot of advice every day. There's videos and top tips and things.
So again, really easy to get in touch with us in there. And we have online support groups, we have one -to -one coaching, retreats, all sorts of things. So, you know.
Michelle:
You did the Heartbreak Hotel, didn't you?
Sara:
Yeah, I did. And yeah, we train people to become coaches and that pain to power journey is so empowering for so many people as well. So lots of options and ways that you can go on and grow and be stronger. So yeah, come check us out.
Michelle:
Thank you. Thank you so much for being in my studio shed today. It's been really nice talking to you and honestly I've taken a lot from it and I really hope and I'm pretty sure our listeners will too. Thank you.
You can find Sara's website by clicking here. https://saradavison.com
There's practical help available through the Citizens Advice Bureau here
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