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If you’ve ever wondered why ADHD is suddenly being talked about so much among women in their 40s and 50s, you’re not alone - and this powerful episode of Two Women Chatting goes right to the heart of it. In this special conversation, GP and women’s health expert Dr Helen Wall joins Michelle to unpack ADHD in midlife , why symptoms often magnify during perimenopause and menopause, and why so many women are being diagnosed only now - or beginning to suspect ADHD for the first time. We explore the overlap between hormone fluctuations , executive function struggles , and the daily pressures of being in the sandwich generation , plus how years of masking have hidden ADHD traits in plain sight. Dr Helen breaks down what ADHD really looks like in women, why it’s often misunderstood, and how understanding your brain can be genuinely life-changing. This blog includes the full transcript of the episode, offering practical advice on recognising symptoms, navigating diagnosis, making the most of GP appointments, and celebrating the strengths and superpowers that come with an ADHD brain. If you’re curious, confused, or on your own midlife ADHD journey, this is the perfect place to start. Full episode is available on all podcast platforms or click here . Dr Helen Wall Today on To Women Chatting we're diving into a topic that feels very close to home to me, ADHD in midlife women… and I couldn't think of anyone better to help unpack it than Dr Helen Wall. You might recognise Helen as one of TV's favourite doctors, as resident GP for BBC Breakfast, BBC Morning Live and a columnist for Women Magazine. She's a women's health specialist and an all-around voice of sense and science when it comes to understanding how our hormones, brains and busy lives collide. Now if you've been around here a while you'll know I was diagnosed with ADHD a few years ago so I'm on this journey too juggling menopause, midlife, motherhood and about thousand open tabs in my brain. So in this episode we're going to talk about what ADHD can look like for women later in life, why so many of us are only getting diagnosed now and how to manage the overwhelm with a little more self-compassion and maybe a little less caffeine! Let's just say if you've ever walked into a room tripped over your suitcase from the holiday you returned from a week ago, find that you're doing the same wash multiple times over because you've forgotten to put it in the dryer and your time blindness is an inside family joke. This episode is for you! And here is Dr. Helen Wall. Welcome to the show. Dr Helen Well thank you for having me here and that's a brilliant segue into exactly what we'll be talking about today. Michelle It is, you are so passionate about this, aren't you? What draws you so much to this particular area? Because you are a GP, so you cover all parts of medicine, menopause as well, but so frequently you post about this and you're passionate about raising awareness, aren't you? Dr Helen Yeah, I mean I've always had an interest in women's health. did actually apply for run through training to be an obstetrician gynaecologist and I was actually very heavily pregnant with my first child then and decided to go into general practice. So although I love being a GP, that love for advocating for women and making sure women get the right care that they need has always been there. I think that probably stems back to my mum who was a midwife and I grew up obviously with her having that same passion. yeah, every time I've done anything in my career as a GP, it's always drawn me back into working to advocate and help women get the right care. And it's such a frustrating area of medicine that women don't get the care that they need and there's still so much disparity and inequality I feel for women in medicine. That's something that I'm really passionate about trying to change. It's a huge, huge thing to change, but little by little, things like this, we can all do a little bit to do that. I've got a particular interest in ADHD. My daughter, who's now 17, has a diagnosis of that. I recognise many of these traits in her, and I started to see it quite commonly in my menopause clinic that I run, an NHS menopause clinic for our primary care network, I started to see women that I just thought there was something else going on here and started to recognise traits that I'd recognised in my daughter and vice versa. I became a bit passionate because I didn't want my daughter to get to the point of being in midlife, having missed opportunities, having felt that she'd struggled all her life to get to the point where she suddenly had a light bulb moment and everything imploded. So that's where that sort of grew from really, wanting to get things better for women. Michelle I think a lot of people have heard now about neurodivergence, you know back in 30 years ago when women were going through menopause it wasn't talked about it, wasn't really recognised so can you give me a brief 101 on what ADHD is Dr Helen Well, it's a neurodevelopmental disorder. And I think that's a really key  point that we need to make here, because I think there's a lot of hype around at the minute about it being a trend and about it, there being no test for it. So therefore, people just jumping on the bandwagon and people are describing symptoms that everybody's got as having ADHD. And it's absolutely not that. We've got really, really clear evidence that there are functional and structural differences in the brains of those people with ADHD, so how the brain looks and how it works in terms of the neurotransmitters and the chemical messengers and how they function. And we've got evidence that there is genetic predisposition and certain gene loci, so parts of genes that lead to neurodivergence, in particular ADHD and autism.  We have real evidence that this is a real thing that exists but despite that we're still getting particularly women told that they've not got ADHD and that they're overthinking things and it's just part of growing up it's just part of menopause and so on and that really really grates on me . Michelle Me too. That gender bias is so, it's still enormous, isn't it? Because, you know, traditionally we thought of little boys jumping up and down on sofas and being sort of slightly out of control as being ADHD. But little girls were so often told to sit still, be quiet, behave. And that masking behaviour, we've carried that for decades. Dr Helen Wall So let's switch quickly because there is so much ground I need to cover with you. Why are women now starting to get diagnosed in midlife? Dr Helen Well, I think for things like this, really, I think we're talking about it a lot more. And I think something that has changed in the last couple of years is we've actually started to look at how female hormones impact the female brain. It's absolutely ludicrous that in 2025, I'm sitting here saying, but in 2023, there was the first study done that looked at how female hormones can impact on our brain, for years. I went to medical school, I did lots of GP training, I've worked in medicine for 20 years and we never talk generally day to day about the fact that oestrogen and progesterone affects how a woman's brain functions, it affects how she thinks, it affects the ability for her to process information, to retain memories, to you know get up and go. All of these things are driven by chemical messengers like for everybody but also by our sex hormones and the first study was done in 2023 looking at how hormones impacted menopause, so why do women become depressed, anxious, etc. Why do they get brain fog in perimenopause and menopause? And then they started to link it back to, actually because our sex hormones are starting to fluctuate or dip. I think from that we've got to extrapolate that into all different aspects of medicine, including neurodivergence. really escalating information and research now to show that those drop-in fluctuations in our sex hormones impact how the brain works in neurodivergence as well as the general female brain. And I think once you get a movement going and people start to talk about these things more, exactly what you're doing here today, which is fantastic by the way, people start to think, women start to think, hang on a minute, I'm not just ditzy or lazy or disorganised and actually there's something else going on here.  Numerous women and people contact me day in day out on my Instagram channel about the fact that they've struggled all their lives yet seemingly been perfectly in control, they've got good careers, they've managed a household, a family. To the outside world, they look like they've been flying but the cost of that, the internal cost of that is so great that those women often end up burnt out, tired, exhausted, and just everything imploding once our hormones start to fluctuate and deplete in perimenopause. Michelle it's almost like a perfect storm, isn't it? So we're coming to midlife, we've got different kinds of concerns. We might be changing careers or feeling that those menopause symptoms impact our work life. We might have elderly parents as well as adult kids to worry about and care for. And we might have partners that perhaps we, know, the silver divorce is huge. You know, we might be finding that we're tracking differently in relationships. Dr Helen Yes. Michelle So all of a sudden we've got this hormone dip and in a way, as you said, it's that burnout. We can't take it anymore and something's got to give. Dr Helen It's the perfect storm, isn't it? It's that perfect storm of everything lining up. We often talk in medicine about the Swiss cheese model. I'm sure other industries talk about it as well, where everything just lines up.  Each of those things on its own wouldn't lead to a complete catastrophe. But once you line all those things up, you're just heading to a really dark place. women have been doing that. People say to me, well, why has this suddenly happened now? Why are we suddenly diagnosing this now? It's not because it's new. I don't truly believe that the number of women with ADHD has risen in the last two, three, four, five years. I think we've empowered women to recognise it and start to talk about it and start to ask for help more and that's why it's gone up considerably. And it needs to continue to go up because I believe there's still a considerable number of women who are suffering and struggling in this space but haven’t got a clue what's going on for them and I hear from those women day in and day out on my Instagram channel. Michelle You know, in a funny way. I could almost equate it to the Esther Rantzen effect of Childline, that there were always kids being abused, but they didn't know how to let people know. Now we've gone through menopause as well, where, as a female community, we've really gathered together and raised awareness and shared symptoms. Now we're onto ADHD. And I agree with you, I think we've always had it, but we've managed those symptoms and now the overwhelm is so much. We’re now at a point where because our parents are living longer. A generation ago, sadly, those parents probably wouldn't be around now. So we wouldn't still be sandwiched right in the middle of both those things. Dr Helen Let's not forget, we're not that far away from when women couldn't get a mortgage on their own without permission from their father or their husbands. I think I read, I think it was what, 1997 or something ridiculous like that. I can't remember the year now, but I remember thinking I was a teenager at the time. It wasn't that far along ago, but actually now women are working in the workplace like men work in the workplace. We're running a home where we're literally doing everything. This is not me slagging off men, but we've added on that right to be in leadership roles, in work, running successful businesses, et cetera, that maybe women weren't doing as much even a generation ago and that adds a lot of pressure. So we're doing all these things, we're living longer. So I think years ago when women used to go into perimenopause and menopause,that was sort of a signal that they were coming towards the end of their life really - women lived to what, 50s, 60s? Now women are living into their 80s. We're spending half our lives not having been through perimenopause or menopause. So it's a significant chunk. And as you said, parents are living much longer. People may have had children later on. So they've got teenage children who are also hormonal when they get to that point in their life. It is just an absolute, yeah. Michelle That is an excellent point Helen because we used to have kids in our 20s and now so many of us are having kids in our 30s or even 40s. So you know in the normal order of things back in the day by the time your daughter was 23 she would have moved out and had kids and that would not be your responsibility and, sadly, your parents may not be with you but also you are not thinking at the age of 50 let's do a career pivot let's start an Etsy shop or let's let’s,train as a nutritionist because that's been my passion all my life. Now we are literally looking at halfway through not halfway done and thank goodness we are starting to provide support and recognition. Let's have a look at some of the symptoms that are typical of ADHD and maybe particularly typical of midlife women if you can share some of those. Dr Helen So I think you mentioned earlier, didn't you, about masking? And masking is a huge thing for these women. You know, the symptoms that they've had have often not been the typical. Even I've got colleagues now who still think that ADHD is about being impulsive, about running around the classroom throwing chairs. Actually, a lot of the symptoms for women, particularly women who've got to this point and not been diagnosed, have been internalised . So they've been those things of constantly sort of having been struggling to process, to switch tasks, to keep on task and so on, but internalising that in terms of worry, anxiety, feeling like they have to mask to seem that they are on top of things, but actually having to prepare a lot for everything that they do. So I had one lady say to me that if she went to a meeting, she was a very high flying businesswoman, but she would prepare for three hours for one business meeting and she would be up to 11pm/midnight just to do that because she wanted to go into that meeting fully informed and fully on top of everything but she couldn't trust herself to be able to do that in the moment. She had to have everything completely prepped because the cognition and her pathways in the brain couldn't process that information quickly enough and a lot of the symptoms that women have are more of that thing really that preparation, brain execution, rather than the impulsivity. And if they do have impulsivity and hyperactivity, it tends to be very internalised. So it's that unable to switch off, unable to rest, fidgeting, getting in bed at night and not being able to stop that mind turning . I'd be interested to hear what symptoms you had, Michelle, and what led you to sort of think. Michelle I'm glad you mentioned that because I think this is another reason that women my age are starting to get diagnosed is because we're looking at our kids differently.  So our kids are coming through school and it might be flagged up that their behaviour could be ADHD or neurodivergent, which is what happened to me. I had a lot of guilt actually because when my daughter was seven, eight, nine, ten, she had a very high IQ. That came through in her academics but she was so scatty. There wasn't a week that went by that she didn't lose something, forget her homework, find quizzes and tests really difficult, getting things done in order. We didn't know what that was. And she was diagnosed with auditory processing disorder. Later on, as she became 18, 19, 20, and I think this happens a lot when kids go to university and you lose that kind of helicopter parenting because we're still there as a support network. When they're on their own, it kind of implodes a little bit because they've got to be an adult in an academic situation. And she didn't do that great. She managed to get through. Now when I look back, I am unbelievably proud of how she managed to navigate that process without meds, without diagnosis - and it was after she went to university, we did suggest maybe she should maybe just go and chat to somebody. Let's see… Sure enough, she was diagnosed as ADHD. And as I did a podcast on this, this is four years ago when I first started Two Women Chatting and I got an expert in to talk about it, about adult kids. I'm like, hello, are you talking about her or me now? What is going on? And isn't it though? So then you start looking at yourself and thinking, gosh, apple and tree. This is extraordinary. Dr Helen Yes, that's so common. Michelle But I also feel like you mentioned right at the beginning there, the hopping on the bandwagon, the trend. It's almost embarrassing to then go and say, I wonder if I've got it too. Because my family did react like, here we go, Mum. Yeah, yeah, you as well. Definitely. They're used to it now and they accept it. But that feeling of being gaslit or will my doctor just dismiss it as menopause? Let's go down that route, shall we? Because the mix up between is it perimenopausal or menopausal symptoms at our age? We don't know. How do we recognise whether it's more than that? Dr Helen Yeah, it's super hard and this is something I talk about a lot on my Instagram channel. It's hard for women to decide what's going on. What I always say is, if you have ADHD, that's not just appeared in perimenopause and menopause. That might be when you recognise it or when people around you recognise it. But actually, if you sit down and really think, which can be hard for someone with ADHD,I get that! But maybe don't sit down. Maybe walk about and really think about your childhood and how you were in your teenage years. And often at each point for women, when the hormones dishevelled a little bit. So often we will notice a distinct bit of unravelling, as I like to call it, around puberty and then perhaps when they've had a baby. And then again, when they hit perimenopause because it's that impact of those hormonal fluxes, that impact on brain chemical messaging but usually the symptoms or always the symptoms should have been present at least from under age 12 . Sometimes I'll say to women have you got any old school reports because they might not remember what was said but actually if you trace it back really carefully you can usually see if you speak to family speak to mum dad they'll always have just put it down nine times out of ten to she was just scatty she lost everything all the time. S he couldn't sit and take anything in. She couldn't process information, but that was just her. And it's not been recognised as an actual thing.  It's just been labelled as something that you do and your personality. But actually, if you link it right back and go right back to childhood and then through your teens and into adulthood, you'll start to piece together where things perhaps didn't quite fit. And what women will often say to me is, I've never really felt normal. I've never really felt, I've always felt there's something different about me or I've never really understood why I couldn't do that easily like everybody else. There's always some kind of little thing that they say that just sort of stabs you in the heart but then you think, gosh, why have we missed this for so long? That was the real thing that I didn't want my daughter to have to go through, moving forwards in life because I'd seen it in so many women. But I have to hold my hands up and say I'm not perfect.,.  I'm registered menopause specialist now, but I wasn't then. And I've probably missed it in lots of women. And, you know, I'm not proud of that, but  it's about being open and honest and saying, it's okay that we've missed it in our patients, but we need to change that moving forwards because things do need to change. I think I've probably also got a little bit of ADHD. People say, well, everybody's got a bit of ADHD, but, we recognise it in our children. I know -and I certainly have recognised traits in my daughter, in myself. You know, everybody's journey is different, isn't it? I'm not in a place where I want to go down that road of being diagnosed, et cetera, but I understand why some women do and we need to accept that everybody's an individual and we need to do what they need for that support. Sometimes it's not about jumping on medication it's just about getting that validation of why you struggled for so long, why you've had to over prepare for everything, why you've constantly felt restless and let's talk a little bit about that rejection sensitivity dysphoria  that women get because that is huge isn't it and the emotional turmoil Michelle Yes, please. It's massive! People don't understand how awful that is, how you always feel. I've had this podcast for four years and people say, you've done really, really well. I'm like, no, not really. But everything is magnified to a degree that you think, someone, especially with social media. my goodness. It's awful. Click to pre-order - published May 2026 Dr Helen Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think we need a whole new term for ADHD for women, if I'm honest. I think attention deficit hyperactivity disorder just does not, it does not show what's on the tin at all. Not what's in the tin, is it? You know, it's completely different for women. It's often not about attention deficit. It's about attention difference.  Often they've got very good attention for some things and absolutely no attention for others. But for women, the huge part of ADHD is that emotional dysregulation.  And that gets ever more difficult when our hormones go into flux. So in puberty, when we've had a baby, when we are in perimenopause and menopause, we already know, because of what I was talking about before with the effect of hormones on our brain, that hormonal flux impacts our brain in terms of anxiety, memory, brain fog, depression. And when you've got ADHD, those things are already challenged because your dopamine levels are often not functioning well or not being read properly or lower than the normal. And the estrogen impacts that as well. So things definitely go into spiral. And emotional dysregulation is a huge part of that. And I think we don't talk about that enough and the impact that that has. Michelle Do you think that's why so many people who later discover they've got ADHD may have been either dismissed by their GPs or just offered antidepressants because it kind of shows itself in a sadness or a not fitting in or can't put my finger on it kind of thing? Dr Helen Yeah, absolutely and one of the things I always say to GP colleagues, and I'm a GP trainer as well so I try and drum this into my GP trainees, is treatment resistant depression and anxiety we shouldn't yes okay we might change with anxiety and depression you have to start one medication change to another and so on but if a lady is coming back to us time and time again - I've had ladies that I've seen where they've been in and out with anxiety and depression throughout most of adult life from teenage years and they've never got better. Why have they not got better? And often it's because we've not got the root cause. So I'm not saying that you can't have anxiety and depression if you've got ADHD. You absolutely can. The two can coexist. But what I am saying is what we're not very good at is looking at why is this person not getting better with the treatment? What else is going on for this person? And sometimes, very often in fact, there's an underlying neurodivergence that's been missed or not recognised and that person has therefore been treated with medication for anxiety and depression. Some of that may be absolutely right because we know that if you're neurodivergent you're more at risk of becoming anxious and depressed because of the struggles of living in a world that is forcing you to be neurotypical effectively and the brain differences that happen.  But we shouldn't just be reliant, we shouldn't just be labelling those people as that without looking at what else is going on for them. Michelle It would be a good thing at this point to mention that there's emerging evidence that ADHD people react differently to medications. So what might work for a non neurodivergent person might spiral somebody else. Can you just talk a little on that? Dr Helen Yes, there is very much emerging evidence about the way that our or people with ADHD and neurodivergence of their enzymes work, the way the brain reacts to medication and you know we see this particularly in hormones as well so I talk quite a bit about progesterone and how women with underlying neurodivergence often react very differently to them. That's the same for many medications, particularly medications that affect our GABA receptors. Our GABA receptors are those receptors that are our calming receptors. So that's the receptors that if you take a sleeping tablet or you take a relaxant like Diazepam, Valium, or you have that glass of wine when you're really stressed on a Friday night, it hits those receptors and you just feel that first dull of calm. We know that those can vary in women who are neurodivergent and therefore, we really should be looking a bit closer at how we manage these women with different medications and the same with antidepressants, but unfortunately we don't really have the guidance on that because the studies and the evidence is just really coming to the surface. It's certainly not something that we think about in day-to-day clinical practice. I'm not going to sit here and say that I can change women's medications based on me knowing that they're neurodivergent because we just haven't got the information to do that. What I can say is that I can be very mindful of the fact that they may not react how we expect them to and things may not pan out as we expect them to. So I often try and set that expectation and have a very reassuring threshold for tweaking and tailoring things and not being too disheartened when things don't go to plan and that's all we can really do I think at this point in time until that research becomes more and then it gets embedded into clinical guidance and practice. Michelle Now some women are quite fearful about going to their GP for a diagnosis in case they're not  ADHD. There's that hypersensitivity again, we're going to get rejected, we haven't even got the ADHD that we thought we did. But of course, you know, there's so many kids who are in line trying to get ADHD treatment. The NHS is overwhelmed with helping cases and I don't know if they do it on a priority basis, kids first, women later. But because of waiting so much and potentially worried about getting rejected, lots of people are self-diagnosing. And I think this adds to the, ‘everyone's got a bit of ADHD', everyone's jumping on the trend. It's not necessarily that. What is your ‘doctor take’ on going the self-diagnosis route, at least to start with? Dr Helen I really advocate for that. I call it self-identifying as ADHD and I think it's something that we should be encouraging women to do because not every woman is going to want or benefit from medication. So I think you have to weigh up for yourself what are the benefits of me getting a formal diagnosis here. So sometimes women want a formal or need a formal diagnosis because without it they're not going to feel validated, they're not going to get the support from their family and friends, from their workplace. They're going to want medication which you absolutely can't get without a formal ADHD diagnosis and even then as you've said it's a struggle. But I think if you are somebody who is genuinely really struggling and have struggled throughout life there are so many resources out there that you can access without a formal diagnosis of ADHD. There's so many support groups, there's online resources on places like ADHD UK, Facebook groups, you can really tap into quite a wealth of support from other women who are going through the same. And I think there's no harm in doing that. fact, I think it's quite beneficial to do that if you're not somebody who is needing that necessarily, formal diagnosis. And even if you are somebody that's going for that, we know that the wait times are so lengthy now that doing that in the meantime can be quite helpful - just to get that support because it's a lonely, lonely place I think for women and they need that support. Michelle It really is and I feel like if you are going for that self diagnosis and you can start putting practices in place and advocating for yourself and honestly giving yourself permission to fail sometimes. One of the things that I think having the diagnosis has done for me and for many women I know with ADHD is having that label that makes them feel like they're seen, that they're not stupid, disorganised, lazy, any of those things that you can be so self-critical about or have from partners, families, like laughing at you.  I cannot tell you how many events and concert tickets, I still regret the Robbie Williams concert back in the 90s that I missed! I realise now that that I've given myself permission sometimes, if my social battery wears out and things like that, we're so much more aware post pandemic of how throwing ourselves into social situations does drain our batteries and now if I've got several events during the week I think no I'm going to need a day off where I can lay on the sofa and play Candy Crush Saga and it's alright because I'm going give my brain a little bit of a break and it has helped me operate better - so from that perspective I would encourage anybody even if it is to find out that you're going through perimenopause or menopause and maybe there's things that could help you through HRT or natural remedies or exercise. I think fundamentally we need to be kind to ourselves and allow ourselves to diagnose whatever is making us feel like something's ‘off’. Dr Helen Yeah, absolutely. It's that self-compassion, isn't it? And that permission to rest and that permission to care for yourself. And I think so many women are bad at that generally, whether they've got ADHD or not. think we run around, don't we, looking after everybody else, trying to be perfect, trying to be on top of everything. we've got to, in general, think women are bad at giving themselves that space, but particularly women with ADHD who've spent their life trying to stay on top of everything and keep up with everything and then hit this period of their life where the hormones go into flux. It's so disabling for them. I've actually got a book coming out next year about this and it talks about that very thing about how we, it gives you some tools and tips on how to sort self-identify and really sort of tap into just doing exactly what you said, just looking after yourself and getting the most out of yourself and your brain really. Michelle I’d like to end on a really uplifting note because one of the things I think about ADHD and we can bandy around the words like superpower  but a lot of creative people have it and a lot of people in emergency situations are remarkable in those times. Kate Garroway has just admitted that you know she's just done celebrity traitors and she is now pursuing an ADHD diagnosis after talking to Cat Burns who is very open about her autism and her ADHD, Martine McCutcheon, Nadia Sawalha, Denise Welsh. I could go on and on about a number of celebrities who are thankfully giving their voice and admitting that they've got ADHD. I think it's a really good thing. So I personally feel like I can lean into creativity. I really feel like being neurodivergent has given me the edge on thinking beyond laterally. I can get a problem, I can get into it and I can come up with odd, different solutions to how I either solve it, promote it or get people on my show and I, I never stop. So let's talk a little bit about the upside of having ADHD . Dr Helen There's so many upsides, aren't there?  I read once that they thought originally it was some kind of evolutionary benefit having ADHD, that the people that were neurodivergent actually were the people that survived best in the wild, because of that ability to sort of not stop, not rest, just get on and see problems and often people with ADHD, women with ADHD particularly, but people with ADHD are often very emotionally intelligent and intuitive and they can read a room and they can read a situation. I've seen that to be true in so many instances. I got a message from somebody who's on Instagram and it said, you know, I've been told I can't have ADHD because I've got a successful career and I've never been in trouble with the police as a teenager. I mean, what an absolute load of rubbish. Some of the most successful people I've met have got ADHD or are neurodivergent in some form or other because they're just so driven and intuitive and they just get on with things and they can hyperfocus and just achieve and create and drive forwards and you know the energy that they often exude is second to none. So I think you know it's not a problem having ADHD if you're allowed to live with ADHD rather than try and live in a neurotypical world and be forced into those pigeon holes that you necessarily don't fit into.   So I truly believe it's the society around us that causes the issues with ADHD and particularly women with ADHD, not actually the ADHD itself. The problem that we've got is that we're not very good at supporting women or enabling them to get that support because for so long we've covered it up and just allowed women to mask and headlong into burnout and that needs to change  and doing things like this is the exact reason why I'm doing that because I think together we can help make that change. Michelle There is a reason why GCHQ, the house of spies if you like, actively recruit people with neurodivergence because of their problem solving skills. One last thing actually Helen, when people go to the doctor, they've got a short amount of time, how can they maximise the time that they've got to try and get some help? What should they do in advance? Dr Helen I would definitely recommend that you do a screening test for ADHD. It's a really crude measure. You can find it on most ADHD websites, ADHD UK, there's one on there. It's a crude measure and it doesn't give you the full picture, but it just enables the GPs to focus their mind. I would go with information about not just the symptoms you've got, but how it has affected you. So if you feel like you've been masking, actually talk about the cost of that masking and the fact that it might look like you've got a good career and you've done all these things and it doesn't look like it, probably have. But the cost of that and the internal restlessness and burnout that that's caused and I would try and link that back to childhood if you can because the GP will be looking to see that this isn't something that's just happened in perimenopause, menopause or post-childbirth or something, it's something that's been neurodevelopmental and throughout the life course so you need to provide a little bit of information about that. I always say this to people and I completely understand how this happens. I'm very pro advocating for women and women with neurodivergence and if I see a lady who doesn't know that and she comes in to see me, often they come in very defensive and expecting a fight basically and that can be really hard dynamic then to come back from in a consultation. I think try and park every dismissal, everything you've had. I know this is really hard and it's easy for me to say one side and go in with a fresh mind with the information you've got and have a clear ask that you want to be referred for X, Y or Z or you want to be, you you want to have a look at your menopause or whatever and go in fresh and open and give the GP a chance because I think sometimes it's hard when people have seen other GPs or with the healthcare pressures or they've had problems from family who've dismissed them and they come in and they're very argumentative and on the attack and the consultation just spirals nowhere. So that would be my best advice just to go in open-minded with the information with a clear ask for what you want and if you don't get what you want and you d on't get where you think you need to be then it's absolutely fine to go to go again to a different GP. Don't feel that you have to write that off. You can keep going and ask for a second opinion. You can do that with anything. Michelle and use the resources that are out there. Your Instagram channel is brilliant. You've pinned up some really, really wonderful explanations of how people should go about getting that diagnosis, what they should be looking for and how they should keep records. Michelle I would really, really advocate for women if they are feeling like they need to get that diagnosis. Don't be put off by the imposter syndrome, the ‘I'm going to be rejected’. It is weirdly empowering just to know, not to like shout it from the hilltops. It's your private information but it might just help you deal with the burnout, the constant juggling, just so much that goes on in midlife. Helen, thank you so much for joining me today. You've been really, really informative. Thank you. Follow Helen on instagram @doctorhelenwall or take a look at her website www.tvhealthdoctor.com Helen’s book Menopause and ADHD: How to navigate hormone flux and neurodivergence  will be out in May 2026. Pre-order here What ADHD Looks Like in Midlife Women Why Hormones Make ADHD Symptoms More Noticeable How to Prepare for an ADHD Appointment The Positives and Strengths of an ADHD Brain Why ADHD in Women Is Not a Trend Some excellent resources and instagram accounts: ADHD Love - just the best explanations in a really warm way Alex Partridge podcast and instagram @adhd_chatter_podcast ADHD Women's Wellbeing podcast and instagram NHS ADHD in Adults link ADHD UK Adult Self Screening Tool link

Number 1 -  I am not a menopause expert (far from it) - but I have gone through it (and out the other side!) and I’ve been lucky enough to to meet and learn from everyone on this list - so I trust them and can recommend them.  But please  do your own research, keep those symptom trackers, advocate for yourself and seek support. Number 2 - this is not an exhaustive or complete list.  There are many many fabulous experts and meno-warriors out there that can help - doctors, coaches, nutritionists, wellbeing experts, healthcare professionals, fitness and exercise coaches. If you listened to my recent Brooklands Radio show dedicated to Menopause Awareness Month , you’ll know how passionate I am about cutting through the noise and menowashing to share genuinely useful advice from trusted experts. After the show, so many of you reached out asking for the resources I mentioned - so I’ve pulled everything together here in one place. Whether you’re in perimenopause, full menopause, or supporting someone who is, this guide is designed to help you feel informed, empowered, and less alone. You’ll find links to expert podcasts, the HRT prepayment certificate, symptom checkers, charities, and menopause organisations I genuinely trust - plus a few of my favourite reads from brilliant women like Kate Muir, Kate Rowe-Ham, and Mariella Frostrup. Because knowledge really is power - and when we understand what’s happening to our bodies, we can make the right choices for our health, our future, and our joy. Trusted Experts Dr Juliet Balfour @menopausehealth Dr Nighat Arif @drnighatarif Dr Naomi Potter @dr_naomipotter Dr Shahzadi Harper @drshahzadiharper Dr Rachel Hines @drrachelhines Trusted instagram accounts/influencers/platforms Jane James @janemhdg - founder of community Facebook page Menopausing and Me with Davina McCall Libby Stevenson @libbystevenson.wellbeing Claire Hattrick @theexecutivemenopausecoach - Menopause in the Workplace Zaowoman - Judith Sprusz - @menopausehealth - education, health coaching and hormones Meera Bhogal @meerabhogal Laura Dowling @Fabulouspharmacist Dr Claire Kaye Career and Confidence Coach Dani Binnington - Menopause and Cancer Kate Muir - @menoscandal menopause campaigner and film-maker (documentary with Davina McCall) Carolyn Harris MP - an incredible supporter of women's health and chairs the All Party Parliamentary Group for Menopause. You can contact her here: carolyn.harris.mp@parliament.uk Michelle Griffith Robinson - Olympian, life coach, women's health advocate Emma Bardwell - nutitionist specialising in women's health and menopause - author of The 30g Plan Great books and author instas great menopause books Owning Your Menopause - Fitter, Calmer, Stronger in 30 Days - Kate Rowe-Ham How to Menopause - Tamsin Fadal Have a Magnificent Menopause - Alison Bladh How to Have a Magnificent Midlife Crisis - Kate Muir Meno-Wars - Fiona Clark The Natural Menopause Method Cookbook - Karen Newby The Feel Good Fix - Lavina Mehta MBE Menopause Yoga and Wellbeing - Petra Coveney Midlife Matters - Katie Taylor @loungelatte Menopausing - Davina McCall and Dr Naomi Potter Cracking the Menopause - Mariella Fostrup and Alice Smellie The Definitive Guide to the  Perimenopause and Menopause - Dr Louise Newson Useful podcasts - they’ve helped me :) T T wo Women Chatting - of course! These episodes in particular: Kate Muir | Midlife Unflitered: Menopause, Mind and Magnificence - click here Kate Rowe-Ham | Own Your Menopause, Fuel Your Power - click here Jenny Eclair | Life After Menopause - click here Emma Skeates | Menopausal Madness - click here Menopause Part 1 - click here Menopause Part 2 - click here Owning Your Menopause with Kate Rowe-Ham Is It Hot in Here - Dr Naomi Potter No Appointment Necessary - Dr Amir Khan and Cherry Healey The Laura Dowling Experience - Laura Dowling So, let’s talk meno-washing . You’ve heard of greenwashing - when brands pretend to be eco-friendly while wrapping everything in plastic? Well, meno-washing is the midlife version. It’s when a company suddenly decides it’s “menopause-friendly” … usually around October… and slaps the word “meno” on absolutely anything.I’m talking menopause toothpaste  (because apparently, your gums need empowerment?), menopause tea  that’s just chamomile with attitude, or the classic “hormone-balancing candle” - like that’s going to regulate your oestrogen! Even workplaces do it - posting about “supporting menopausal women” on social media while keeping the office at 22 degrees and offering zero flexibility or understanding. So here’s the rule: if it doesn’t educate, empower, or genuinely make your day easier - it’s probably meno-washing.Stick with the experts and brands who actually care, not just cash in. If you pay for NHS prescribed HRT medicine 3 or more times in 12 months, an HRT Prepayment Certificate   could save you money. Each item on an NHS prescription usually costs £9.90. You can buy an HRT PPC for a one-off payment of £19.80 (the cost of two single items). Doesn’t cover testosterone though - go to NHS.com  to complete https://health-charge-exemptions.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/buy-hrt-ppc/start And while we're here... getting that glue off from all the patches? Try Nudi spray . Spray on, wipe off. (not an ad and not on commission!) The Stats One study found 25% of women  have “severe symptoms” that significantly impact daily life. On average, symptoms persist for about 4 years  post-period—but in some cases can last up to 12 years . A major UK survey of women aged 40-60 in employment found 73%  experiencing menopausal symptoms. In that same group, 67%  say their symptoms have had a mostly negative  effect on them at work.  Around 10% of women  have left the workforce because of their menopause symptoms. 27% of employed women aged 40-60  say menopause symptoms negatively impacted their career progression — that’s an estimated 1.2 million  women in the UK. Congratulations to the Menopause Mandate for pushing through their MM40plus campaign that has now resulted in menopause being included in the NHS over 40 health check.  Mariella Frostrup and Carolyn Harris have spearheaded the campaign. “Including menopause in the NHS 40+ health check will help millions of women make informed choices about their symptoms and treatment” says Mariella, Chair.  Wes Streeting, Secretary for Health announced the news today. This follows the findings of Menopause Mandate’s 2025 Mega Survey, which gathered responses from more than 15,000 women, and confirmed its previous yearly findings.  If you don't get asked to come in for a 40+ healthcheck by your GP practice, ask them for one! There is no single number for menopause symptoms , as sources cite varying amounts, from over 30 to more than 70, with some lists identifying as many as 62 or 76. These symptoms are often grouped into categories like physical, psychological, cognitive, and sexual health. Symptoms can include common ones like hot flashes and mood swings, as well as less-known effects such as changes in body odor, tinnitus, and electric shock sensations.  Common and widely cited: There are frequently cited lists of around 34 symptoms, which include hot flushes, night sweats, and mood swings.  Other widely recognized symptoms: Other commonly recognized symptoms include joint pain, headaches, changes in skin and hair, trouble sleeping, and brain fog.  Lesser-known symptoms: Some sources identify a much larger range of symptoms, sometimes exceeding 60 or even 70, which can include a wide array of physical and psychological effects. These can include things like:  Changes in body odour  Worsening allergies  Electric shock sensations  Tinnitus (ringing in the ears)  Dry, itchy eyes (which water a lot) Bleeding gums and metallic taste in mouth Irritability and anxiety  Fatigue  Driving anxiety Vertigo and dizziness, clumsiness Download a menopause symptom checker here The Menopause Charity is for all women and other individuals experiencing menopause, as well as their employers, partners, families, friends, and the health professionals supporting them. Some great TV shows that might help: Davina McCall: Sex, Myths and the Menopause - on Channel 4 Davina McCall: Sex, Mind and the Menopause - on Channel 4 💬 Keeping It Real (aka The Disclaimer Bit): Just so we’re clear - no one’s paid me to be here! Every expert, resource, and recommendation I’ve shared in my Midlife Toolkit - Menopause Edition is something I genuinely rate and trust. I’m not a medical expert (though I’ve read enough about HRT and hot flushes to qualify for an honorary PhD in peri-chaos). These are simply the things, people, books and podcasts that have helped me navigate this wild midlife ride. Please, always check with a qualified healthcare professional before making any decisions about your health - Google and I don’t count!

Donna Ashworth “ If you wake up expecting disappointment, expecting misery, expecting things to go wrong, you'll always find disappointment, you'll never be disappointed about that. But if you wake up and you decide, I'm going to seek all the ways in which little things go right, I'm going to look for all the little bits of magic and human connection, then you will never be disappointed because it's absolutely everywhere. ” Michelle : Donna Ashworth is a Sunday Times bestselling poet and author, recently named the UK's number one bestselling female non-fiction author and number two in the world just behind Mel Robbins. That's incredible. She's known for her anthologies that seem to arrive in our lives just when we need them most and her new book Joy Chose You is a collection of poems and reflections that remind us joy isn't something we have to chase, it's something we can allow even in the midst of life's challenges. From grief and change to laughter and love, Donna's words offer a hand to hold and a nudge towards hope. She's built a remarkable community of readers online with over a million people finding daily solace and strength in her posts, proof that words really can be medicine for the soul. Donna, it is truly such a joy to have you here. Welcome to the show. Donna : Aw, thank you. What a gorgeous intro. Michelle : Now you've come a long way from the 'Instagram poet'. I don't think we can even call you that anymore. I think you've gone way beyond just social media platforms because you've had an incredible summer. You've been at so many festivals. You're a prolific author now. You've got another new book that we're going to talk about shortly. And I have to applaud you again, Donna. Last time we spoke, your word of the year was brave for growing brave and one of the things you talked about was overcoming that absolute crippling anxiety of getting on stage and talking to people. Well, I think you've done it, haven't you? Donna : I think I have. Do you know what? It wasn't easy. As with all good things, you know, it was a slog. I had a little bit of hypnotherapy with a lovely man called Jonathan Goodwin who, you know, basically did all he could with me and said, this is done now. What's left here is the self-fulfilling prophecy that is yours to, you know, face off, which is something that so many of us have. You know, we tell ourselves things all the time. And if you have a thought over and over and over, it hardwires, it becomes a belief. So I think midlife for a lot of people, a lot of women especially, is about unpicking those beliefs that actually, are they true? Do we really believe them? And then hardwiring new ones. So my new one is, I love public speaking. It flowed through me with ease. And when I first told myself this over and over, it was a lie. You know, it wasn't true. I didn't love it at all. But I'm glad to say that as with all things, if you repeat them enough and you want it enough, it's become And what I've always enjoyed about getting over the fear of public speaking is what is on the other side of that. And let me tell you what's on the other side. It's loads and loads and loads of amazing women who are just like me and we connect immediately and we have a chat and we overshare. And, you know, all just strangers who are just friends you haven't met yet. So everything good is on the other side of cringe and fear. Something I tell myself all the time. So it's been, you know, it's been hard, but so very worth it. Michelle : But I know one thing that's really important to you is connection, isn't it? And that is something that I think you can pick up in a room or a marquee or wherever you are and you're doing a Fane production talk as well, getting on stage. But it's palpable, isn't it? The way that you feel your words resonate. I'm sure when you're standing on stage behind that mic and you're seeing women listen to your poetry maybe for the first time and you see that light bulb moment like, oh, she's talking to me. That's exactly the way that I feel. That must feel incredibly powerful. Donna : It's amazing. It's the best thing in the world, bar none to me, is that feeling the little goosebumps. You know the way when you’re talking to someone and they say something and either you were just thinking it or you were just about to say it or it resonates with you so hugely that you'll get the little goosey skin and you're like, goosebumps, goosebumps. And to me, that is whatever, in whatever way it's happening. Is it, you know, the brush of someone saying that's, you're right. This is what you need to speak about. This is what I've been trying to tell you. Or is it the frequency of each other connecting and making a little frisson? Whatever it is, it's bigger than us. And you're aware you're in the presence of some sort of connection that just happened. So when that happens, you know, with a couple of hundred people in the same space, it's wonderful. It's just beautiful. Joy Chose You - October 2025 Michelle : You've always been a writer because you've written songs and you've been a magazine writer. And then as we went into COVID, you found poetry to be a really good vessel for you, for your feelings and to share with others, which is where you became the 'Instagram poet'. And When the World Stopped was a poem that was shared across the sea and across the UK, making millions for the NHS. That was really your beginning. And obviously you've come a long way from that. But one of the things that resonated with me and it was just actually on Instagram from you the other day. It stopped me in my tracks because your book is about finding the joy. But I think at the moment, and we'll come onto the book in a little bit, but I want to just point out something that stopped me in my tracks. About two days ago, you posted something and you said, we were never meant to know all of life's troubles all of the time. No human condition was ever supposed to worry for all human conditions. And I thought, I had to show my husband. I said, she's nailed it. She's absolutely nailed it. We're all feeling so sort of upset by world events and the news reels, the news cycles are so toxic. We don't see anything good in there, but we have to curate. We have to feed our mind better, because as you pointed out, we've got to find the antidote to the news. Otherwise, all we're doing is flooding our heads, our bodies, our minds with this negativity. How do you deal with it? Donna : I mean, I've had to do this to survive my entire life. I think I've spoken about it quite a lot, but the first time I sort of had a breakdown was in university. And it was a news story that set me off then. Now, it would have been happening, the big change in my life, leaving home, going away to university, new stages, transitions. It was probably all happening. But that news story, that was me I went under. And I did not want to be on this planet anymore, where things like this were happening. And so I am somebody that has had to actively avoid the news for that reason, because there have been several news stories over the years, especially in vulnerable times. So when I was a new mum, it became a real point of contention in our home, because my husband watches the news constantly. And I, he would think, oh, she's being oversensitive, unreasonable. But the truth is, my mental health was so poor and so vulnerable that that news story about a child in danger or children in any kind of harmful situation, it would set me off. I would become depressed. I would go under as I term it. So I had to find ways of, I don't want to ignore, I don't want to be ignorant. We have to be aware of what's going on. But how can we possibly choose from a menu of 40 things in a day, each as bad as the other, each as horrific and, you know, as the other, which we can do nothing about. So what you have to do is you have to try and balance it out with all of the good stuff as well. Otherwise, you're only seeing everything that's wrong. You become helpless. You become, you know, you become so bogged down by the misery of it that you're no good to yourself, to your children, to your friends, never mind the world. So if you balance it out and make sure you're taking in all of the good stories as well, all of the ways in which humans save one another every day, and there are countless, but you have to work harder to find them, because they're not avidly, you know, available as the bad news. You have to work to find the good news stories. And if you also be present in your own world first, do what you can in your own world to make it what you want to see on the news. You want it to be peaceful. You want it to be loving. You want it to be kind. You want community. You want connection. That is something you can do in your vicinity right now. You can do some small thing. The ability to take step towards that stress is very good for your mental health, because you're taking action. Your nervous system feels safer. It feels more useful. You're involved. You're doing something, but this stress that you can't do anything about, if you're constantly taking that on board, you will sink. And yes, you can help. There are ways that we can all help, but it has to be, it has to be done. You know, put your own life jacket on first, put your own oxygen mask on first, otherwise you're no good to anyone. Michelle: You can find yourself in an echo chamber of perpetuating toxicity, can't you? And I've heard you say before that just taking a couple of minutes throughout the day to recalibrate, try and find, you know, it's hard to be a rainbow when there's so much dark, isn't there? And you have been described as sort of a rainbow spirit. You, you dopamine dress, you wear wonderful colours. Donna: Those are little tools that we can use as well to try and find the joy in our life by dressing in a way that makes us feel less invisible, more joyful, less dark. But I think everybody can find a few minutes to give themselves that self-care. It's the intention of it. And intention is a really important word in all of this. So the colours that I wear and the, you know, the things that I write, they're not a side effect of me being a wonderful, sunny human being. You know, they're not just, oh, this is just how I wake up every day and go, you know, give me all the color and look how happy I am. It's the opposite is true. I'm somebody who overthinks, is oversensitive, who's overanxious, who's, you know, an overachiever, too much, too much of all the things that you don't want to be too much of and not enough of the things that society wants you to have. So these are the ways in which I've found to help myself. If you, whatever you seek, you'll find. So if you wake up expecting disappointment, expecting misery, expecting things to go wrong, you're never going to be disappointed. You'll always find disappointment. You'll never be disappointed about that. But if you wake up and you decide, I'm going to seek all the ways in which little things go right. I'm going to seek all the ways in which people help one another. I'm going to look for all the little bits of magic and, you know, human connection and Mother Nature's magic, then you will never be disappointed because it's absolutely everywhere. And the more you train your own algorithm, the more it comes to you. I no longer naturally seek the pessimistic view. And I used to be a pessimist and I used to be someone who could not help, but see all of the ways in which something could go wrong. They're still available to me now if I want to look at them, all of the ways in which something can go wrong. And my list is like this. You know, I've had overthinkers say to me, oh, you're like me, you know, you have intrusive thoughts. And I'll say, yes, I bet you've also had the thought that this thing could happen any minute. And they've looked at me and gone, no, I wasn't thinking that at all. You've gone a whole new level. And I'm just like, oh, yeah. So, you know, my brain will automatically seek that. But on a daily basis now, it's joy seeking and it's light seeking and it's hope seeking, it's hope questing. And that makes a huge difference, just makes a massive difference and we can all do it. And it's the teeny tiny things. Michelle : Yeah, it's setting the tone, isn't it? And it's feeding the monkey. If you feed the monkey bad stuff, you're going to get bad stuff. If you feed the monkey something more holistic and happy and joyful, that's what you'll find. Now, I think that's a pretty good way into talking about your new anthology, Joy Chose You. It is an anthology of many of your different poems that you've drawn from all the different publications that you've had over the years. And it is absolutely beautiful, the cover of it. It is a stunning cover. And I don't know whether I'm right about this, but for me, it's one of those books that you can't really put on a bookshelf because it would seem wrong to cover up the cover. And I don't know whether your intention was to make sure that it is left out, because one of the things that you always talk about is 'the book knows'. To get someone to walk past, pick up a book, pick a random page and the book knows what you need to hear. You know what we need to hear because so often you will nail it on, I didn't even know I was feeling that way, or, oh yeah, that's exactly right, that's exactly what it is. So tell me a bit about your philosophy on how the book knows and how this book is really perfect for the whole family to just leave out on display or for a guest who's walking through. Donna : Yeah, well, thank you, first of all. And yes, it's a coffee table book because my followers have been asking me, I hate the word followers actually, I'm trying to think of a new word for that because it makes it sound like I'm just kind of walking along and everybody's walking behind me. The people who follow my page, there you go, that's better. They were after a coffee table book with some art in it because I often share some amazing art on my Facebook page especially. Sadly that's not possible because these amazing artists, their work is so incredible and obviously that's part of their portfolio and there's so many complications with putting art into a book. But I wanted to achieve the same effect and have it beautifully illustrated so that it feels like something special. I've been really clear about having just the words on a page, it's really important to me because the starker it is, somehow the better I think the message goes into your soul because you're looking at that page and you're going, that's a poem, that's so brave to stand on its own like that, it's a little quote, it's going to tell me something special. However, the illustrated, the beauty of it brings in so much more emotion as well because you're literally adding something, you know, a feast for the senses. So it's to be kept out and the more this book is kept out, you've hit the nail on the head, the more likely it is to be opened. And I always say to the children, because I've just released a children's book in doesn't matter if you've time to read it, but when you see it, open it. Because there's magic in that opening and you will see something, you might just see a word or two, you might just see a picture, but what it is that you see will be what you need in that moment. Now the science behind that, the book knows, it's not me that knows, it's you. And you know, magic in all these amazing, serendipitous, random happenings that we so love in my community and that I live for every single day. They're just science we can't prove yet. We know that a lot of our world exists in frequency and that everything that we do is actually electric and alive. And if we could see it, it would be incredible to watch the connection. So when you pick that book up, something is happening between you and the brain of which you only use a very small percentage of and the rest of your brain sees so much more than you know and knows so much more than you know. You choose the page yourself and you know what it is that you need. And all the book is doing is putting it in one place for you to be able to do that every day. But the magic is coming from you. Oh, I love that. So joy does choose you. And it finds you. Yep. So by putting each of your poems in isolation on a page, it's almost like the Mona Lisa on a wall. You don't have the distractions of other things so that you can really focus your intention on reading it and taking what it wants to give to you. And I think you and I have talked about this before that we're both neurodiverse. And I think that really lends a lot to but quietening the chaos so that you can deal with one thought at a time instead of many, many strands of thought. I can see your influence on the way that this book is illustrated and set out. Yeah, it's so important. You're so right as well. Because if you're overwhelmed, and that's why I always see that I write the way that I write chunks. I could go on and on and on about a topic, but I deliberately don't. Because what your mind needs exactly what you just said, it needs to explore that one thought and to quieten everything else down. And when we're overwhelmed, the last thing we can do is read a book. The last thing we can do is take in a lot of information or go into a lot of depth about something. You need to you need an emergency shot of something, you know, and you're a busy person, you have a busy life. These are straight to the point, little messages from my soul to yours to remind you what you already know, but to put it in focus and priority today or that particular day. And I am actually writing a book at the moment, a full book. And this is a quandary for me, because I don't want to lose that open a random page and get something very, very, you know, that jumps straight out at me and grabs me and goes, this is what you need to read right now. So how to do that in a very full book, because I've always, as you said, been very specific about having one small piece on a blank double page so that you're not reading something else straight away and taking you away from that thought. It needs time. You need to now go away about your day and let that little poem, that little quote percolate and marinate and decide what it means in your life and your world. So yeah, and it does, it works. Michelle: It absolutely works. Now you have garnered a lot of very famous fans. And I just want to read a couple of quotes that they have said about you, because these are big compliments, really big compliments. Robbie Williams says, if there is a God, Donna is doing her or his work. Well, that's not bad from Robbie. Susannah Constantine. Michelle and Donna at book event Donna: Can you imagine my face when I read that? It was a Monday morning and my social media started ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping. And I thought, what's Monday morning? What on earth could be happening? And he had just tagged me on Instagram on his Monday morning cuddle club. And he'd written that and he'd sent all these followers to give me a cuddle. That's what he does. How adorable is that? How adorable is that? And now I was a take that fan. And when I say a take that fan, I ditched the first day of sixth year at school as a prefect to go to Glasgow and queue outside HMV in my school uniform to meet, you know, take that, which was insane. So, I mean, I was a huge take that. They got me through a very difficult time. Michelle: They got us all through difficult times, didn't they? Like you, the lyrics just pierced your soul. The lyrics were what we're all going through, loves and losses and happy times. And it, you know, it takes you straight back there in many ways, doesn't it? To those teenage years. He said such lovely things about you. Did you manage to meet him? Donna: I didn't, no. That's one day. So I met him once, obviously, when I was 17. I'm sure he really remembers that! And yeah, you never know. And do you know what? Never I would just sort of collapse into a puddle. Oh my God. Because not only is it the connection from my childhood, but it's the community of the women who love take that. We're all in our forties and fifties now. We get it on impact. You know, we know exactly what it meant to us. We know what it- it's community, it's bonding, it's connection. It always comes back to exactly the same thing. And that little, you know, moment in time is a version of us that lives inside the dolls, you know, the doll inside the doll, inside the doll, inside the doll. So we connect on that instantly. And it's the sort of full circle moment, isn't it, of well, I'm an adult now, but that little doll that lives- I still have that teenage feeling, yeah. Those butterflies. I'm delighted that Robbie Williams, you know, and yeah, we all just get it because we've all been there. Michelle: Well, Davina McCall sent Yellow, your wonderful poem, Yellow, into orbit. She, huge, huge fan of yours. Also, Bryony Gordon, Dawn French. And I like this one from Susannah Constantine who said, "some people have the Bible by their bed. Others, a self-help manual, I have Donna Ashworth." Donna: I love, honestly, I adore that woman. And do you know what, the most amazing thing about all of these amazing women who've been kind enough to give me these words is that they've become friends. And, you know, if you'd have told me that five years ago, that would have seemed almost impossible. That's, you know, somebody who's worked for so long and I've been admiring of for so long and who's so fabulous and so successful. But the reality is they're just amazing women. And that's why we're so drawn to them on our TVs. And that's why we buy their books. And that's why we think that we love them because we do love them. And we all have that feeling, don't we? I reckon we'd be best friends. If we ever had a chance, I reckon I'd be best friends with this woman on my telly. And it's true, you would be. And that's why you admire them because they have all the qualities that you like in other women. They're just incredible. Michelle: You are that woman now, Donna. You are the woman that people want to be best friends with. And I think it helps as well that you're such an empath, that you really get people and you're very kind. And we've met in person and the first thing you do is give people a hug. You're just so... Don't ever change, will you? Donna: I don't think I could. Trust me, I tried for many, many, many years. You know, I tried to change all the things about me that were too much like giving everybody a cuddle. But you're not meant to do it. Well, as you say, acceptance. You have to accept yourself whether it's for good or for bad. You have to accept if you're going to live with grief or anxiety or sadness in your life. And that's the only way that you can live your life, but find the joy to add to it, right? And I mean, we're all, you know, there's elements of me that are dorky and too much. And I'm always making funny faces and I'm always doing ridiculous things with my hands. And I'm never going to be that poised, graceful, you know, ethereal being that quite frankly would probably be useful to me in the job that I do, you know? I think it would be intimidating. You just be you, Donna. I can't help it. I'm always going to be... There's a photo of Davina and I from a couple of weeks ago when she very kindly brought me onto her stage on her night with Davina and asked me to read the poem Yellow, which was... I mean, the best invitation of my year. And we were so excited to see each other that there's a photo of us when we're both just doing the most ridiculous... Like the excitement's too much, so we're just like, you know, we've become some weird creatures. And it's my favourite photo ever because... That's real. I know that feeling when you meet people who you really enjoy. Like when we met each other in the summer, you know, we've only spoken once or twice, it's like, I've been dying to properly meet you in real life. Michelle: Oh, you're so sweet. You are so sweet. Donna: And it's just joyful to let it go and be... The trick with everything, Michelle, is to not be afraid to be delighted and to show that you're delighted, to be easily pleased by everything. If you can be easily pleased once every hour of every day, you're winning at life, you know? And some people will look down on you and say, oh, God, I've just been writing notes to all these women to go with my new book. And I always put a little heart on the eye of their name. And I'm 50. And I sit there and I think, isn't it wonderful that I still heart my eyes to the women in my life that I know will totally appreciate this beautiful little piece of stationery that I bought that has gold foil on it and this pen that I'm writing with. And it's a proper love language, but you're also loving your inner child at the same time by allowing yourself to still, you know, heart your eyes. And look at your fingernails. People can't see her fingernails, but they are a rainbow. There's green and pink and red and yellow. These are from the happy place. They're from the last happy place. And there's my neon. And every time I look... And do you know what happened yesterday? So I was driving down this little country road just behind my house, and there was two women in the middle of this lane. It's a road, but it's really a lane as well. So you have to give way. And they were both doing that with their nails. They were looking at each other's nails in the middle of the road. So I had to stop the car and they were like, oh, oh, oh, sorry. And I just rolled my... Well, pressed the button window down and went, look at mine. I adore that story. Oh my gosh, it's just gorgeous. They were really taken aback because I guess that's not really a normal thing to do. And as I drove away, I thought, oh, that was a bit cringed on it, even for me. But then I reminded myself that these little things that you do, they will walk away. And maybe a minute later, they'll go, that was so funny. Takes a second. It can land awkwardly at first when you tell somebody, I love your dress or, oh my goodness, your hair. You know, at first they can be taken aback by it, but that grows in the night when they're alone. That little compliment takes root and grows. And it also comes from that ADHD impetuous honesty that is hard to hold back, isn't it? And it's that blurting out of, oh, I love what you're wearing. Or, oh, I wish I had your skin. Your skin's cool. I must say, I do that quite a lot. And people look at me like, you're a bit of an odd bird, aren't you? But that's okay. Michelle: Let's turn to some of your choices. Because how on earth did you choose the ones that went into the book? You have a lot to choose from. Did you choose every one or did you ask your publisher to go through it with you? How did you make that choice? Donna: I asked my lovely editor, Susanna, to choose her favourites. I went through and I chose all the poems that had gone viral. Because once a poem has been shared a certain amount of times, it's no longer yours to, you know, it belongs to lots of people who used it in a part of their life. So whether it was to a friend in need or at a funeral or at a wedding, these are little moments, but they mean a lot. So every poem that had done that thing went straight in, no question whether I like it or not. There's a lot of people out there who have used that in a moment in their life and that's for them. And then my favourites went in. And of course, as soon as the book went to print, Michelle, I remembered about 10 that I should have put in. Of course I should have put in because they're favourites and sadly they're not in it. But you have to stop somewhere. And I had to put new ones in. I didn't want it just to be a collection of the favourites because, you know, this book is beautifully designed, but it's a bit more expensive than my other books and I'm always aware of that. And I want to make sure that people get, you know, for their money, if they're going to use their money to buy a book of mine, I want it to be really, really worth it and really have as much as I can get in it. So I wanted new ones in there for people who know all of my work and are waiting on new ones. But yeah, it was a tough choice. Michelle: I can only imagine. Do you ever worry that you might run out of words? Donna: Oh, never. I did at one point, there was one point where I was doing three books on the same day. They were coming out on the same day. Life, Love and Loss came out three books on one day. And I look back and I think, why did I do that? That was bonkers. Because I was fighting myself for a place in the charts, which was just silly. That is silly, isn't it? Really silly. What you live and you learn. And I wondered what if I'm throwing too much out at once and, you know, I might run out. But as with everything in life, you change. Every few months, you're a different version of you. Your life is in a different stage. Your children are at a different stage. Your friends are at a different stage. Everything is constantly evolving and growing. So there is always a new perspective, maybe even on the same topic, because you're coming at it from a different phase and you're a different version. So I might write about the same topic over and over again. And it will appeal to different people each time I do it because they're in the same phase as me at that point, or they feel the same way. So I don't think I'm ever going to run out because everybody keeps giving me lots of inspiration. Well, here's one thing that I picked up on Empty Nest. That's in there. And of course, that's a new phase, perhaps, of your life as your children have grown up and started to leave the home. Michelle: And that will resonate because we're all of us. I'm older than you, but we're all of that age. And as we go through that iteration of our children needing us less and then actually moving out of the house, Empty Nest is a really beautiful poem. So yes, as you get older and perhaps as you become a grandmother, you'll be looking at things in a different perspective through different spectacles. Donna: And I don't have an empty nest. It's not here for me yet. I wrote that poem about five years ago when I definitely didn't have an empty nest. But again, it's with the overthinking. I have always been the type of person who wherever I am, I can see how that's going to feel in a year, two years, five years, ten years, which can be very overwhelming if your brain's giving you all at once. But once you write it down, it clears that out of your brain and you think, you know, that is for another day. I've explored it. I've had a little cry. I read Empty Nest yesterday to make a video on it. It made me cry. And both my kids have cried too. But again, that is, you know, the conundrum of motherhood and any kind of love. You always remind yourself what a gift it is in this moment. And if you're not reminding yourself of that, you should be. And I don't use the word shoot lightly, but that is one thing you should be doing, reminding yourself how lucky we are in every phase. If you've got the person that you love here, no matter what phase, whether it's a tough one or a golden one, you know, it's still a gift. Michelle: Well, I wonder, Donna, if I could finish up with one question and then beg you to read one poem, if you don't mind. But what do you read? What's on your bedside table? Donna: Well, that's an easy question. You Can Heal Your Life by Louise Hay. Very good. I don't actually even read this book. And actually, one of my friends, she's a bookstagrammer who has become a friend through her buying my books, bought me a beautifully illustrated edition of this. I don't have it to hand, sadly, which I will treasure forever. So Louise Hay, when I was 17, saved my life. And that's that end of story. So her voice lives in my brain. I don't even have to read this because it's in me. And her affirmations flow through my mind constantly. Sometimes I'm pretty sure she speaks to me from the other side. In fact, I know she does. So her book, Just to Have It Near, reminds me that it's near. And the energy of this book just, you know, is important to me. So Anything by Louise Hay, Anything by Louise Hay will bring you something vital. Michelle: Well, Anything by You will bring you something vital. And I wonder if I might persuade you, as it is the title of the book, would you be kind enough to read Joy Chose You? Donna: I would love to. this time, it's beautifully illustrated, which I do think adds something lovely to this poem. So here we go. This one is called Joy Chose You. Joy does not arrive with a fanfare on a red carpet, strewn with the flowers of a perfect life. Joy sneaks in as you pour a cup of coffee, watching the sunlight hit your favourite tree just right. And you usher joy away because you're not ready for her. Your house is not as it should be for such a distinguished guest. But joy, you see, cares nothing for your messy home or your bank balance or your waistline. Joy is supposed to flip through the cracks of your imperfect life. That's how joy works. You cannot truly invite her. Not really. You can only be ready when she appears and hug her with meaning. Because in this very moment, Joy Chose You . Michelle: I love it. It's so beautiful. And it does remind us that we forget to notice those joyful moments. Donna: We do. And just one sort of final thing. There is a lot to be said for choosing joy and seeking joy. But the reality is we forget to be just me. And as you are in that state of just being, that's when you're most open to receiving the real true joys, which are the real simple joys. They are the things that are free. They are the things are easy. They're the things that are all around, which we are not seeing when we are choosing joy in the big things. You know, we're chasing it. We're booking nights out. We're booking holidays. We're trying to create joy. And actually, joy doesn't need any of that stuff. It just needs you to have your eyes open and to be quiet sometimes so that she can sneak in. Michelle: Well, Donna Ashworth, thank you so much for joining me again. And this book is out now. It is called Joy Chose You. It is an absolutely gorgeous, gorgeous present for anybody for Christmas or just at any time in their lives. You know, you're sending a message to someone that you really care if you give them a Donna Ashworth book. That is for sure. Thank you so much. Lovely to see you. You can find more from Donna Ashworth here . Her book is available from Amazon here . Listen to the episode on Spotify here or on Apple Podcasts here

Michelle So today's guest is living, writing and podcast hosting proof that perfection is vastly overrated. She's the creator of the smash hit podcast, How to Fail, where she's gently coaxed everyone from Hollywood stars to political heavyweights into sharing their failures and the things that didn't quite go to plan. And somehow she's made us all feel better about our own disasters along the way. She's also a celebrated journalist, bestselling author of novels that make us question everything we thought we knew and she's back with her latest page turner, One of Us. Her sixth novel is a compulsive story of betrayal, old bonds and buried scandals. One British establishment family comes face to face with the consequences of privilege and the true cost of power. So grab a cuppa and maybe a list of your own failures just in case. It's time to chat with the endlessly brilliant and refreshingly honest Elizabeth Day. Welcome! Elizabeth Day Michelle, what a lovely introduction! You've got such a soothing voice as well. That was like having hot caramel dripped on me. Michelle my gosh, that is going to be my endless clip I will play over and over from this interview. Thank you. Coming from you, that is amazing. And I was just telling you how, you know, I've interviewed lots of people, not as many as you, and I love interviewing. I love finding the stories behind people. It's just such a joy. But for some reason, you're such an icon in the interviewing world. I was really, really nervous. I was like, why did I run out of CBD gummies today? Elizabeth Day Thank you so much. What a lovely thing to hear. And I'm very touched by that, but there's nothing to be nervous of. I mean, you are such a seasoned professional in terms of broadcasting that it's completely my privilege to be sitting on the other side of the interview microphone. So thank you. And thank you for your kindness. Michelle Actually even you said that interviewing people like James O'Brien can be a little intimidating, can't it? But interviewing, yeah, interviewing an interviewer, they kind of get what you want and you know what they want out of an interview. So I know this is going to be wonderful. And I have been wanting to chat to you for a long time now because it was actually my girls that put you onto your podcast probably, gosh, probably about four years ago. Elizabeth Day Yes, I totally get it. Michelle And I first heard How To Fail when you were interviewing Greta Thunberg. And I was so taken by your interview technique and your ability to listen rather than talk and to articulate the way that Greta was coming back with her answers. You got me hooked from then. Elizabeth Day Well, thank you. Well, first of all, thank you to your girls. Secondly, thank you for taking their advice. And thirdly, thank you for starting with Greta Thunberg, because I love that particular episode. I found her so delightfully unexpected. I already knew that she would be an incredibly eloquent and impassioned activist but I hadn't realised that she has this sense of joy and humour about the world and I really valued getting to know her on that level and so it stayed with me that interview so I'm really glad you started with that episode. Michelle I think you brought out the non-seriousness of her, which was an actual joy to listen to, because as you said, she's a very earnest young lady with very impassioned campaigns, but you brought a warmth and a fun side out of her that made me want to listen to her campaigns and her activism even more. So you did her an enormous favor, I think, in highlighting her in such a warm way. Elizabeth Day I'm so glad to hear that. Thank you. And also, I think people forget how young she is. I mean, at the time that I was interviewing her, I think she was still only 19. And that's someone who's so devoted their life to this extraordinary and necessary purpose, but she didn't really get enough of a chance to be a teenager. And so I really wanted to allow her the space to bring out that side of her. Michelle And I think you did, you really did. And of course you have interviewed the most incredible people. I've noticed more and more you are interviewing a lot of Hollywood personalities. You had a great interview quite recently with Pamela Anderson about her finding her rawness and her truth about herself and sort of peeling back the layers. That was incredible. There must be more people, your series could obviously run and run and run because there's...incredible, fascinating people in the world that haven't made it onto your podcast. But is there somebody, and I know this is kind of a cheesy question, but is there a dream guest that you'd like to have? Elizabeth Day Definitely, and it's not a cheesy question at all because it actually sort of brings it back to who the person that I most want to speak to is the person who I think can make us all feel so much better about our own failures. And so it actually asking that question identifies a lot about the podcast. And I, from the very beginning, I've had Michelle Obama and or Barack, listen, I'm not fussy. I think Obama's. Michelle Yeah, not fussy, not fussy. Elizabeth Day and Oprah Winfrey on that list. Oprah for obvious reasons because she is such an iconic interviewer herself and also someone who has changed the media landscape in my lifetime in such a significant way. And then Michelle Obama, I just think she has this beautiful gift of maintaining her relatability whilst also being an extraordinarily powerful and famous woman. And I Yeah, I just, I keep trying. I keep trying, Michelle. And I haven't got there yet, but yeah, fingers crossed. And I, you're right that I've been so lucky to interview some amazing people. And Monica Lewinsky was actually on my dream guest list when I first started and I've just had her. So I feel like I'm inching ever closer. Yeah. Michelle I think you will. And she was incredibly honest as well about her very, very public failures, which she has learned from, and also very movingly talked about how she had come to terms with not having children in her life. And you too have been very open. I think you've helped many people who have resigned themselves or come to terms with the fact that they may not have children. And I think one of the things that I heard you say about that was that you, we all think maybe we're going to be parents in our teens and our twenties and we all think it's going to go perfectly well and we're going to get pregnant. And of course, if you're 15, 16, you probably get pregnant like that, but it gets harder. And you have been through the most incredible journey. But what you said really resonated with me was that finally, instead of looking at it as, of course it was going to be joyful, of course it was going to be 100 % amazing. You finally found the courage or the enlightenment, flip that narrative to, well it could have been awful. mean teenagers are smelly and untidy and unruly and you you could have had a terrible relationship. So has that really helped you now to, because you seem a very happy person now. Elizabeth Day thank you. Gosh, what a lovely compliment. I'm so glad I seem like that. And I am. And I'm really glad you picked up on that because I was talking about it recently in a different context, in a relationship breakup context. I think we are all capable as humans. We have this extraordinary ability to tell stories. That's what differentiates us from other species. And obviously my profession is a storyteller as well. So I'm very good at telling myself stories. And you're completely right. I would tell myself the most glorious, romantic, illusory story of how wonderful it would be to be a parent and to have this sense of reciprocal love, the likes of which I'd never experienced before, and how my child and I would have this extraordinary bond and the things that we do together. And part of that was also part of the thinking positive aspect of it that you're often encouraged to do, sort of manifesting your future, which I think, although a lot of people talk about it with the best of intentions, can sometimes make us feel that we're failing to imagine ourselves into joy, because sometimes it's incredibly difficult going through a fertility journey and not getting the results that you think you want. And at a certain point, I realised that I was telling myself the best version of the story. And actually there was a world in which the worst version could happen too, in which, God forbid, my child could have been beset with problems. I would have been a much older mother had it worked out for me. There are all sorts of health risks associated with that. It could have impacted my relationship, my friendships. It would mean definitely that I would have less time to pursue the creative avenues that I currently do with the podcast and with writing books. And the most likely truth is somewhere in the middle of that sort of very optimistic and very pessimistic outlook. And it really, really helped me to sort of recalibrate because instead of continually mourning the thing that I thought I had lost, I was able to refocus on what I already had and finding joy in that. And the thing that Monica Lewinsky said that really stuck with me about her also having a child-free, not by choice life was that just because you have made the right decision for you does not mean that you are going to live a life without regret. Michelle Absolutely. Elizabeth Day And it's so profound because it doesn't mean, although I have chosen to be at peace with not having children, it doesn't mean I don't have sadness attached to that. And that sadness will come up again and again for me at different stages in my life. So recently I met an old friend's teenage daughter and that was such a wonderful experience, but it was also triggering for me because I thought, there’s every stage of childhood and growth I will at some point mourn and feel sad that I don't have in my life but that doesn't mean that it's the wrong thing for me and actually I have so much purpose and meaning fulfilment in my life in other ways and also with the children who exist in my life currently so I'm lucky in that respect I have beloved nieces, godchildren, stepchildren And there are so many different ways to show up as a parenting figure in this world. So it's been a long journey, but it's been a really, really fulfilling one. Michelle It's good to hear you sounding like you're in that place that you feel comfortable. Now you mentioned there are the triggering moments that will likely come at different parts of your life. I've often wondered when you do your podcast and you're very vulnerable and people share really, really deep and failures of their lives, do you ever find that triggering and how do you deal with that sort of emotional side? I know I've been in interviews or even gone to play Lewis Capaldi's Survive on the radio for the first time and listened to the lyrics and I find it really hard not to burst into tears. How do you deal with that professionally to keep the focus on the interviewee and not to be engulfed in your own emotional journey? Elizabeth Day That's a fantastic and compassionate question. There's quite a long answer to this, so I'll do my best to summarise it. But my background before I was a podcaster was in print journalism. And I'm 46. And so when I started out on newspapers, it was still the tail end of the Fleet Street, boozy lunches, very male dominated environment. And I came of age as a print journalist in a culture that did not encourage us as the journalists to show our emotions. In fact, it encouraged us when we were sent to interview a celebrity not to put ourselves in the piece. So the idea of starting a sentence with a personal pronoun when you were interviewing someone else was really frowned upon. And so, I got used to the idea that an interview should be entirely about revealing the truth of the other person, which is still what I think an interview should be. But I think I went too far in just not talking about myself, but not bringing any of my own experiences in, because actually, the other great thing about an interview is that it should be a reciprocal conversation, I hope. I hope that's what people feel when they listen to the podcast. And when I started How to Fail, I was sort of still in that mode of thinking. And if you listen to some of my really early How to Fail interviews, I don't bring myself into the conversation that much. Obviously, I'm asking the questions, but I'm still quite formal and now to my ear a bit stiff. And it was my listeners in those early seasons who said to me, we really like it when you share something of your own experience. And that really made me feel safe. And so I started opening up and I started being more vulnerable. And The knock-on effect of that was such a profound gift for me because when you do take the risk of being vulnerable, it turns out that the things you feel most sadness over the things that you think is so uniquely personal or in some way shame-filled Turn out to have far more universal resonance than you could ever have imagined And so it was making me feel less alone and it was the antidote to that misplaced shame that I felt about for instance not being able to have a baby or having got divorced in my mid-30s and so then I became kind of addicted to it and and now  I really understand the power of that shared vulnerability and you're right that when my guests does me the honour of opening up about something of their own that has caused them pain sometimes it will affect me. I mean, actually all the time it affects me, but sometimes it affects me visibly. And if I had still been working for those newspapers in that context of me, sort of 20 odd years ago, I would have stopped myself from showing that emotion. But what I now believe is far more powerful is to show my guests that I feel their emotion, that they are seen and that they are held in that space and that their emotion is respected and valued. And sometimes I do cry. mean, particularly there's one that I'm thinking of. There was an episode with Bonnie Tyler who spoke, was her first ever podcast. And she spoke about experiencing a miscarriage, which is something that I have direct experience of and many of my listeners do also. And she was crying because it was so unspoken about at the time that she suffered that and I was crying because the emotion of it was so recognisable and so raw. And so how I deal with it is I don't deny it. And I think that's good advice for anyone experiencing an uncomfortable emotion. And how I deal with it on a practical level is I've learned that for me to be present and engaged and to create that safe space for my guests, I can't do more than two How to Fail episodes a day. I would never record more than two. And I have regular therapy myself. So I have a wonderful therapist who I see once a fortnight. And that's where I can take anything that's come up for me during that time. Because I still do firmly believe, this is a legacy of my print journalism days, that the interview is not about me. It's about revealing. Michelle (15:46.889) Mmm. Elizabeth Day the truth of the other person and enabling them to show up as their true selves. Michelle That's absolutely true, but what you have done in many ways is provide a trauma platform that people almost get therapy from themselves. As you said, you've got this mutual empathy that draws things out of people, maybe that they didn't even expect to say, even the Hollywood greats who are so honed in, don't say that, don't say that. When it's truthful and it's raw and it's real, I can only imagine that for listeners who may have been through something similar, it does feel like therapy. So like, anybody in the emergency services or, you know, who deal with emotionally diverse, rich conversations, I can see why you would need that outlet, I guess, just to reset and get you back into, into neutral so you can continue. Elizabeth Day Yes, exactly. And I thank you for saying that because I think therapists are superheroes. And so to even be mentioned in the same breath as the work that they do is a huge compliment. And I don't want to give the impression that it's all like really heavy listening. So if anyone hasn't listened to How to Fail and they're like, my gosh, that sounds like the ultimate buzzkill. There's also a lot of, yeah. Thank you. Michelle It's not, it's uplifting, it's inspirational, it's fun. You share laughs, of course, it's everything. Elizabeth Day Yes, but it is really important to me that we can feel empowered to speak the truth because so much of the culture that we live in is about avoiding truthfulness or avoiding discomfort and then that affects each individual because we all feel uniquely alone and isolated in our own pain. And I believe part of my purpose in this lifetime is to connect and to enable others to connect to people and experiences that might not be their own and they might feel so far removed from a Hollywood superstar like Pamela Anderson or Kate Winslet and they might see them on the red carpet and think, well, what would that woman have to worry about? They're so beautiful and talented and shimmering. And actually to hear those people say this was a really tough time for me, this was a time when something went badly wrong and this is what I learnt from it, is I hope it just like breaks down the lie of curated perfection and that I hope it makes us all feel more hope and more possibility. Yeah, human exactly. Michelle Human. Yeah. We are all human after all. Now you mentioned there people struggling with all sorts of personalities and demons within themselves, finding themselves. I think this is kind of a perfect segue into One of Us, your new book. So it's your sixth novel. I've read it. It's brilliant. One of the things that I wanted to ask you for, well, if you could give us like a 60 second summary of what it's about, because you'll articulate it far better than me. I've got so many questions on some of the characters. So Elizabeth, do tell us about One of Us. Elizabeth Day Thank you. Elizabeth Day Do you know what? I think you will articulate it better because I'm terrible at pitching, but here goes. Okay. One of us is about why we keep falling in love with the people who damage us. And I mean that in relationships, but also in terms of politics and the characters that we keep electing to govern us. And more specifically, it's about one aristocratic family, the Fitzmaurices. Now, if you've read my previous novel, The Party, you might remember Ben Fitzmaurice. This is a companion piece of The Party. You don't have to have read The Party. It's all in one of ours. It's a total standalone. Ben Fitzmaurice comes from a very privileged family. He's gone to the best schools, the best universities. He's married to the most beautiful wife. He's got the picture perfect children seemingly, and he's well en route to becoming prime minister. That's what we're led to believe. But actually all is not what it seems. And beneath that picture perfect surface is a tale of secrets and lies of familial damage and toxicity. And one of us is the story of this unraveling. And it's told through the prism of five characters. There is Martin Gilmour, who went to school with Ben Fitzmaurice and has always been somewhat obsessed with him. But he's the quintessential outsider, Martin. And he's slightly untrustworthy because he's never felt that he belongs. But one of us sees him being gathered back into the orbit of the Fitzmaurice family and he's such an observer that he sort of acts as the reader's point of view. So you see a lot from his perspective. Then there's the character of Serena, who is Ben's wife, who is undergoing a change of her own. Literally, she's going through menopause. And it's my first menopausal character written when I am going through it. So there was a lot that went on the page as I was, she gets those hot flushes. And she's also going. Michelle (21:18.045) and she gets the hot flushes, she gets everything, doesn't she? feeling less desired and all of those things. Elizabeth Day Exactly, exactly. And she's going through a change herself because she's always been someone who has prioritised the way that she looks over anything else and has been valued for that by other people. she's actually having to dig a lot deeper and discover who she is and what her identity is separate from Ben. Then there's Cosima, who is Ben and Serena's eldest child and far from being picture perfect. It turns out that she's got a secret that neither of her parents know about, and that's going to be revealed with implosive results. And then the final and arguably most important character is the character of Fliss, who is Ben's troubled sister. And it's about what happens to her. She's always been seen as the black sheep of the family. She, like Martin, has never fully found her way. And what happens to Fliss is at the center of the story of one of us. Michelle Well, I think that's a rather marvelous summary actually because that's exactly the way I heard it. Right, well let's go back to one of those characters which I think you managed to encapsulate really well. But how did you do it? Martin Gilmore. How did you get into the headspace of a man struggling with his sexuality? Elizabeth Day You! Elizabeth Day I don't know. just, I actually don't know. And Martin, in the previous novel in which he appeared, had somewhat sociopathic tendencies. And yet, there's a part of Martin that I really love and relate to and champion. And I think it's the part that we all have, which is that fear of not belonging. Michelle Ha ha ha! Elizabeth Day in places that we want to belong, the quintessential outsider. And for me, that comes from my own childhood, age four, my family and I moved to Northern Ireland. It was 1982, was the height of the troubles. I, as you can hear, speak with an English accent. I didn't fit in. It was assumed I was military from a military family. I wasn't. My dad, he's retired now, but he was a surgeon. And when I went to secondary school, I never fitted in and I was a bit bullied. Michelle The outsider. Elizabeth Day But I got a scholarship just as Martin did to a boarding school in England. And from day one at that school, I was accepted because I spoke in the right way. And it was assumed that I was sort of one of them. And the interesting thing about that was that I was still an outsider. But because of the way that I spoke, I got a sort of ringside seat to things that otherwise I wouldn't have experienced. And so that interplay between being an observer but really longing to be one of them or one of us is what drives Martin. And so I can relate to that drive. And the sexuality part is just an interesting one for me because I think, again, it doesn't have to be about sexuality, but so many of us live with secrets or shame that is misplaced. And I wanted to explore someone who had grown up feeling that his sexuality was something to be disguised and something to be ashamed of, wrongly. But growing up and then entering now his middle age in a culture that has caught up with itself and where now it is so acceptable to be any sexuality you want. I sort of liked the idea that at the same time as Martin doesn't fully belong to the Fitzmaurice family, isn't fully beloved by Ben even though he'd like to be, he is accepted in broader society. probably more so than someone like Ben and more so than he realises, yeah. So I found it worryingly easy, but I will tell you, and I don't know whether this is too crude for your lovely listeners, in the party, I wrote a scene where Martin receives oral sex. And I had an early male reader say to me, how on earth do you know? Michelle than he realises. Elizabeth Day how to describe that. And I was like, again, I've just imagined it. I've imagined it. Michelle I love it. Well, you did it very well. You did it very well. So that's Martin. Now you also talk about, the other thing you just mentioned there, what you did when you went to boarding school and you spoke with the right way. I think you referred to it in the book a little bit as code switching that people, know, like Cosima can relate to, I don't want to give things away, but can relate to another. Okay. So she can relate to the activism group that she's a part of. Elizabeth Day Yes. Elizabeth Day Actually I think you can. Michelle and sort of get down and dirty where a Doc Martens and sort of talk a little less poshly. But at the same time, she knows that when she's part of the establishment, she has to code switch into that and be terribly proper and terribly polite actually, have really good manners. So I thought that was very interesting. Elizabeth Day Yes. Yes. Thank you. Also, I've just remembered, I forgot to mention another major character in my pitch that we thought was so good. I forgot to mention Richard Take. Richard Take. Richard Take. So he's an entirely new character and he's not related to the Fitzmorises. He is a disgraced Tory politician. Michelle Jarvis? Richard, yes, Richard Take. Elizabeth Day who has been found doing something he shouldn't have done and he's lost his job on the front benches because of that. And he becomes a catalyst to the story. And I had a lot of fun writing him. I really did. Because that's the other thing that you're so right to mention the code switching, which several characters have to do. Ben Fitzmaurice has to do it too, because he's so posh. But he's got to pretend he's a man of the people. And... Michelle relatable. Yeah. Elizabeth Day And also the other thing that Richard Take enables me to do is to inject humour into proceedings. So it was really enormously fun writing someone who starts off so lacking in self-awareness that he doesn't realise he's a figure of absurdity and of mockery to many. But throughout the novel, I think he grows and evolves. I hope all of my characters do. And I hope that you end up rooting for them, even though they might act in unlikable ways occasionally. I hope you understand by the end what drives them, what has driven them, and that you can still see something of yourself in every page. Michelle I that's very true. And one of the things that you do that I absolutely love is that you seem to write with all your senses. Now, you don't just describe somebody so I can see them and I can hear their voice, but I can smell them. Does that sound really weird? You you talk about Hector with smelling of head and shoulders and grassiness and you walk into the kitchen and it smells of pheasants and overcooked lamb and floral floor cleaner. Elizabeth Day No, that sounds amazing! Elizabeth Day (28:19.789) you Michelle And I think I get such sort of a powerful sense of being part of the scene that it was just really delicious to read. Elizabeth Day wow, that's an amazing thing to say. Thank you. I love that and I love that. Yeah, thank you so much. I do aspire to write like that and different writers write differently, obviously but I tend to write with a very strong visual. So I will visualise the scene and then I will seek to describe it in a way that transports the reader but also feels fresh and interesting. So I'm really delighted that you felt transported and that all of your senses were appealed to. Michelle They were, they really were. I'd like to go back to your characterisation a little bit more because I did feel like, because we are in the political world for this book and there's a particularly unlikable character, Jarvis. Was he based on anybody or would you like to share? He has some red hair, red face, rather florid, not particularly lovely guy to be around thinks awful lot of himself and money talks. Elizabeth Day Yes. Elizabeth Day Yes, and I just want to say to my red haired kings and queens, this is not aimed at you at all. I would say his hair is kind of sandy, it's not, his red hair is not a sign of his villainy. But actually, I, you know, I did say characters might act in unlikable ways, but I hope you end up rooting for them. I think Jarvis is pretty irredeemable and is the villain of the piece in so many ways. He's actually not based on anyone specifically, but he's a composite of men I have known and disliked. And I also, one of my favourite films of all time is Anthony Minghella's adaptation of the Talented Mr. Ripley. And I think Philip Seymour Hoffman's performance in that movie is so exceptional. And so when I say I write visually, I often have pictures of people who I think bear some kind of resemblance. It's not even a physical resemblance, but some kind of sort of soul resemblance or a character that speaks to me. And I will often sort of cut out those images and stick them on a mood board. And so Philip Seymour Hoffman in The Talented Mr. Ripley was probably on my mood board for Jarvis. And interestingly, The Talent in Mr. Ripley movie has been so inspiring to me in so many ways creatively. Elizabeth Day (31:04.829) And it was definitely one of the influences that shaped my earlier book, Party. And I had never read the original novel and I deliberately didn't read the original Highsmith novel until I'd written The Party because I didn't want to be influenced in any way. And then I read the Highsmith novel and it's fantastic and creepy and it's different from the film as well. Minghella did some really interesting creative decisions, introduced new characters, brought some to the foreground. And to me, that's just such an exciting thing to see how one piece of art is taken and evolved and informed by another. And the art at its best should be a dialogue. And I love seeing the dialogue between those two things. And in one of us, there is a deliberate tribute to Patricia Highsmith, who I think is just one of the most astute and, as I say, sinister and creepy observers of human behaviour that we have and I think her writing is so great. Michelle Well, that covers one of my other questions who inspires you. I just want to return to you managed to touch upon very, very topical things. feels like you mean I just read just for editing sake. This will be coming out on 25th of September. So I'm not going to say I read it in summer or something. OK, back into it. You managed to incorporate so many very, very topical subjects within this book. Elizabeth Day Yes. Michelle One of which was the Andrew Tate reference that one of the young boys has been told or he notices or he has been impacted by his peer group that females are too emotional for leadership. Now, back in the summer when Rachel Reeves shed a tear in the House of Commons, I, like you, was utterly shocked at the backlash and the toxicity of one woman. likely menopausal, likely at the end of her tether to have so much heaped upon her. Do you want to comment on that a little bit? Elizabeth Day I'd love to. Yes, I was so taken aback by the response to Rachel Reeves showing emotion in parliament because I had hoped that we had traveled further than that by 2025. And it turns out that we haven't. And I made an Instagram reel at the time. And in that, I just wanted to explore the fact that our structures are still so male coded along very traditional male hierarchical lines that when a woman shows a perfectly valid emotion by crying, that's seen as weakness, not only by media commentators, but by the markets as a whole. The way the markets respond to that is to believe that there's something terribly wrong and there's something very volatile happening and they need to absolutely respond in an equally volatile way, ironically, rather than when a man shows emotion in what might arguably be considered a destabilising way, which is anger, that is so often seen as righteous and it's rewarded as a kind of powerful statement. And that's why we often keep electing angry men, why angry men still lead some of our major FTSE 100 companies. And the point I was making was actually not about whether Rachel Reeves should or shouldn't have cried and what might be going on for her because the poor woman had enough to deal with with the extraordinary sort of media attention. It was more about why we don't question our responses and how embedded that kind of misogyny might be. And I think we all need to ask ourselves that question. And you're so right to make the point that we, know, if I were advising Rachel Reeves, no one has asked me. But I think, no, shocking. But going back to the beginning of our conversation, I think it's incredibly powerful to own vulnerability because vulnerability is a sign of strength. It means that you are emotionally aware and emotionally evolved you are experiencing a feeling and you are able to name it. And so in a way, know, everyone has a right to a private life, but I think I might've encouraged Rachel Reeves to say, my emotion was because of this, even though it might've felt scary and even though it might wrongly have felt undermining because of the male code destructors that we live within, I actually think that would have been so powerful and so many other people would have been able to relate to that. And I think that our politicians and our political class in general need to be encouraged to do that, show, to have the bravery to show that they are also human, because it will just make them so much more likeable and relatable. Michelle It is extraordinary, isn't it, that the establishment is still so strong within those parameters and within the political world that we haven't moved on. And even though we've got a female chancellor, really those feelings and those thoughts and that empathy have not moved with the times because we're so willing to jump on and destroy somebody just for showing a tear. Elizabeth Day Yes, and I don't know about you, Michelle, but I have cried at work and I've all, yeah, and I've always felt immediate shame and embarrassment about it. But part of the reason I think I cried is because you get to a point where you feel so frustrated and so unseen and so unheard that, and because crying is not and hasn't been deemed as acceptable for so long, that it's this. Michelle Yeah, I think most people have. Elizabeth Day it's almost counterintuitive. Like it's like, this is the most dramatic thing I can do to make my point heard because I'm not able to vocalise it for various other reasons. And because it's seen as such a sort of huge thing. Whereas if people were just more open to showing a diverse range of emotions, I actually think fewer people would cry because there would be less need to. Yeah. Michelle I think there's too much, there's just too much fear to do that. I think women are, you know, have such a tenuous hold on careers, especially as they get to midlife, that to show any kind of vulnerability or emotion, it's just one more peg on the post of, they're not fit for purpose, time for a career change love, trying to, you know, and I just don't think we have the room yet. We're on the way, we're on the way because we talk about it so much and we're more open and women will not accept this kind of behaviour. Elizabeth Day Yes. You can't control yourself. Yeah. Michelle but I still think we're so far away from parity and equality there. Elizabeth Day I totally agree and the only way to tackle that is to get more women in leadership positions, particularly more middle-aged women who come with a wealth of expertise and learned wisdom. They're the people I want to work for. They're the people I find most inspiring and they're the people who can change this culture for the better. Michelle I think people like you too Elizabeth Day. It has been such a pleasure chatting to you and I could genuinely keep chatting all day but I know that you've probably got things to do. I just have one more question for you. Well I guess two really. No doubt are you working on another novel? Is that already in the works? Elizabeth Day thank you. Elizabeth Day Ditto. Elizabeth Day I, yes, it's already in the works in the sense that I'm thinking about it, but I am definitely writing it. I will be writing another novel next. And I have to say, I'm so incredibly grateful for everything that How to Fail, my podcast has given me, not least a whole new audience for my books. And alongside that, writing fiction is my biggest passion. And it's my purpose and my vocation, if that doesn't sound too grand, and it's the thing that I will always do. So to be able to sink back into it has been such a joy. And I really hope that readers, if you're listening right now, it's a real pleasure to be in your ears talking about something that I feel so passionate about. And I hope that you rush out and buy it and find yourself in those pages. Michelle and they should because One of Us is wonderful and it covers so many characters and narratives and it's so topical and it makes you think and it makes you look behind what people are about, know, judgment. It's a really wonderful book. I just ate it all up. It's wonderful and it's available now. It's out. So go out. It's publication day. Well, you know, in your off time, what's on your bedside table? What do you like to read? Elizabeth Day Yes, publication day, Michelle. Thank you. Elizabeth Day my gosh, I've got two massive stacks of books, much to my husband's OCD displeasure, that are constantly teetering with things to be read. But at the moment, I'm hugely enjoying Alan Hollinghurst's Our Evenings. So that's on my bedside table. As is, I've started keeping a diary regularly for the first time in like three decades. And it's one of those sort five year diaries where you just do a one line a day. And so that's on my bedside table too. And so I do that every night before I go to sleep. And actually I found it a really therapeutic exercise. Michelle potentially a future memoir. Elizabeth Day what exactly? I was like you know, I've got to have my retirement plan in place. Michelle\ good material. Elizabeth, thank you so much. I have really, really enjoyed talking to you and keep going. I'm going to listen to every podcast you ever do. And one day you will get Michelle Obama and hopefully one day I'll get Malala. Elizabeth Day thank you. From one Michelle to the other, into God's ears. Thank you so much for having me. I've loved it so much. How To Fail podcast One of Us by Elizabeth Day

Midlife is a time of so many changes. Children leave home, careers shift, our parents age and menopause can throw unexpected challenges our way. It’s natural to feel uncertain - but it’s also a time ripe with opportunity, growth, and potential joy. Dr Itunu Johnson-Sogbetun The Mental Load of Midlife Dr Itunu Johnson-Sogbetun, general practitioner and women’s health specialist, explains: "It’s common for women in midlife to experience a sense of loss or uncertainty. Small, intentional steps can reduce mental strain and open space for joy." She encourages setting boundaries, asking for help, and prioritising activities that truly nurture your wellbeing. Reducing the mental load isn’t just about managing responsibilities - it’s about making room for yourself. What you put in your mind  is just as important as what you put in your body.  Try to limit how often you watch the news cycle and doom scrolling on your phone. Guilty as charged but really trying to change my habits! Books and conversations can be powerful tools for rediscovering happiness. My upcoming Brooklands Radio Book Club interview with poet Donna Ashworth, author of Joy Chose You, explains that she “whittled out the gossip, the click-bait news and the salacious stories the media was serving up daily and replaced it with a balance of beauty, hope, goodwill, fun and laughter.” Gaby Roslin Equally inspiring is broadcaster and Two Women Chatting podcast guest Gaby Roslin, whose philosophy is reflected in her book Spreading the Joy. She starts her day with a smile, taking a minute or two to think about one thing she’s really looking forward to.  Sounds almost too simple doesn't it?  But setting your intentions can affect the tone of your day - even when we’re facing sadness or a tough period in our lives. Dr Johnson-Sogbetun offers practical tips: Gratitude journaling: Focusing on what you appreciate helps shift perspective. Self-care scheduling: Protect time for exercise, relaxation, or hobbies. Reconnecting with passions: Try something new- painting, volunteering, or a small project that excites you. And, importantly, let go of perfection. Midlife is a time for exploration, not pressure. Donna Ashworth Choosing Joy Every Day Midlife doesn’t have to be all hot flushes and lost car keys - it can be a reinvention season. Dive into the books that make you grin, say yes to conversations that light you up, and claim guilt-free time just for yourself. As for friendships? Keep the ones who cheer you on like a personal fan club, and wave goodbye (nicely!) to the ones who sap your sparkle. Because in the end, joy isn’t about chasing something new - it’s about choosing the moments (and people) that make you feel more YOU. " Sometimes, joy finds us when we least expect it. " - Donna Ashworth

by Michelle Ford When adult ‘kids’ leave the nest, it’s often a time to take a look at the space you live in and consider some reorganisation.  You might even think about downsizing or, at some point, moving to independent living within an older community. If you’re not doing it for yourself, you might well be handling the transition of older parents to residential care or dealing with their belongings when they pass. Whatever the reason, decluttering can seem overwhelming at first but, there are lots of things you can do to make it easier and you may find it’s incredibly good for your mental wealth - and wallet too! Dilly Carter, professional organiser and one quarter of the BBC ‘Sort Your Life Out’ team with Stacey Solomon, was my guest on Two Women Chatting recently and she had an important tip when dealing with parents, “The most important thing about dealing with our parents is actually having those hard conversations, having them now rather than when it's too late. Unfortunately, at some point there will be a date when we have to go through your house. Tell me what means something to you. Tell me where you would like this furniture to go. Would you rather I sell this furniture or would you rather I donate it? So always make it sound like you're doing something in a positive way that's going to bring them joy. Rather than it being, right, mum, we need to sort out this stuff, right, let's go through this stuff on Sunday because we need to get rid of it.” Tips for Decluttering Empty Nest Spaces 1. Start Small, Focus on One Area at a Time Begin decluttering by focusing on one area or room at a time. Tackling small sections can make the process less overwhelming and more manageable. Start with spaces that are less emotionally charged, such as storage rooms or closets, before moving on to more sentimental areas. 2. Sort Items into Keep, Donate, and Discard Piles As you go through your belongings, categorize items into three distinct piles: keep, donate/sell, and discard. Consider whether you have used or valued an item within the past year. If not, it may be time to let it go and create space for things that truly matter to you. 3. Embrace the KonMari Method or 4-Box Technique Consider employing popular decluttering methods such as the KonMari Method (organizing by category) or the 4-Box Technique (labeling boxes as trash, donate, keep, relocate) to streamline your decision-making process and effectively declutter your home. 4. Digitize Sentimental Items To preserve cherished memories without cluttering your space, consider digitizing sentimental items such as photos, letters, artwork, and keepsakes. Digital copies can help you reduce physical clutter while still allowing you to cherish special moments and mementos. 5. Repurpose Unused Spaces With your children out of the house, you have the opportunity to repurpose their rooms or play areas into functional spaces that better suit your current needs and interests. Transform these rooms into home offices, hobby rooms, guest quarters, or relaxation spaces tailored to your lifestyle. 6. Minimalism and Multifunctional Furniture Adopting a minimalist approach to decorating can help create a more serene and spacious environment. Invest in multifunctional furniture pieces that serve dual purposes, such as storage ottomans, convertible sofas, or wall-mounted desks, to optimize space and enhance versatility. 7. Establish a Regular Decluttering Routine Maintain a clutter-free home by establishing a regular decluttering routine. Set aside time each month to reassess your possessions, reorganize spaces, and let go of items that no longer align with your current lifestyle or bring you joy. 8. Seek Professional Assistance If you find decluttering overwhelming or emotionally challenging, consider enlisting the help of a professional organizer or decluttering service. These experts can provide guidance, support, and tailored solutions to streamline the decluttering process and achieve your organizational goals. By embracing these decluttering tips and strategies, you can reclaim your empty nest spaces, create a harmonious environment that reflects your individuality, and embark on a new chapter of life with clarity, purpose, and rejuvenated surroundings. If you need help, there are plenty of professionals available.  I booked Victoria Fearnley of Surrey Decluttering for half a day several weeks before Christmas, knowing that I would need extra space for guests in December.  She advises that “the key is to actually start and keep doing it - little and often!” Victoria kept me to task, organised me brilliantly, whisked off all the charity items for donation, took a bunch of dresses to In Style Ascot consignment store and gadgets to sell on Ebay. I felt practically light-headed with the results!  Even better, everything she sold for me more than covered her fee for the day. Win-win! Talking of selling… there are excellent sites where you can sell those Beanie Babies from the 80s or the LPs that have been taking up space in the attic.  Offload the prom dresses to a consignment store like In Style Ascot or pop them up on Vinted.com .  Ebay is still great for collectibles, furniture and miscellaneous items whilst if you think you have something of value you can get an estimate from Vintage Cash Cow.  I have a few pictures, old watches and vases that I plan to send to them. Hold a garage sale, maybe get your street or community involved to attract more buyers. If you’re downsizing for parents, ask them what they would like to do with items.  As Dilly said, have that conversation before it’s too late. Where would they like them to go.  It’s important to remember that all this ‘jumble’ has meaning to them. Remember one person’s junk is another person’s treasure! Two Women Chatting Summer Rewind podcast featuring Dilly Carter is out now on all podcast platforms. 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Summer Rewind: episode with Dame Prue Leith In a heartfelt episode of Two Women Chatting, Michelle Ford sat down with Dame Prue Leith to explore a profoundly personal yet universally resonant subject: dignity in dying. Prue, celebrated for her culinary genius and vibrant advocacy, emphasises that the right to a dignified death is as fundamental as dignity in life. Reflecting on her own experiences, she shared: “We all want to die in a dignified and in a loving way… We don’t want to schlep … to some industrial estate outside Zurich.” This episode, released ahead of a crucial legislative moment, couldn’t be timelier. Public Opinion & Real‑World Impacts Polling consistently reveals that about 75% of Britons support legalising assisted dying, with similar backing across all constituencies. But while public sentiment is strong, medical opinions are more divided. Surveys show doctors and psychiatrists are almost evenly split on whether safeguards are robust enough . On the ground, the human cost of the current ban is stark: estimates suggest 300–650 terminally ill patients die by their own hand each year in the UK, with thousands more attempting it. Around 50 travel to Switzerland annually to die under physician-assistance. As Prue poignantly noted: suboptimal palliative care still leaves dying people to endure “unrelieved pain” in their final months. Safeguards & Scrutiny Supporters argue that the bill introduces the world’s strongest legal safeguards - two doctor assessments, multidisciplinary panel oversight, psychological and social screening, and explicitly voluntary participation for all healthcare professionals. Implementation has been set back to 2029, allowing systems to be put in place and public confidence to grow. Opponents, including disability campaigners, faith leaders, and some cabinet members, warn of a “slippery slope”, suggesting vulnerable patients could be subtly coerced and that safeguards may not be foolproof. The Archbishop of York urged Lords Spiritual to resist, warning that assisted dying could reshape the doctor‑patient contract and erode ethical norms. Podcast as a Platform for Change Prue Leith’s interview brings a human face to these debates. Her emphasis on autonomy, compassion, and avoiding “industrial estates outside Zurich” resonates deeply as voters and lawmakers wrestle with moral, medical, and legal complexities. The podcast is more than a conversation - it’s a catalyst: urging us to confront uncomfortable questions about compassion, choice, and the kind of society we want to live - and die - in. The Terminally Ill Adults Bill now awaits further debate in the Lords—possibly facing amendments or delay, but buoyed by strong Commons momentum. After the Lords, it would need Royal Assent and a planned rollout by 2029. Meanwhile, advocates like Dignity in Dying and My Death, My Decision are campaigning for swift, safe adoption, while critics emphasise the need for more rigorous safeguards and enhanced palliative care. By humanising the issue, Prue Leith reminds us that assisted dying is not abstract policy - it’s about our final days, our dignity, and our right to choose compassion. Prue Leith on Two Women Chatting YouTube channel How the Bill Progressed Through Parliament Labour MP Kim Leadbeater introduced the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill on 16 October 2024 with the aim to legalise assisted dying for mentally-capable adults with less than six months to live. Following a robust second reading on 29 November 2024 (passing 330–275), the bill underwent detailed scrutiny during a 29‑sitting committee between January and March 2025. Significant amendments included removing mandatory High Court approval and implementing a multidisciplinary panel review involving doctors, legal professionals, social workers, and psychiatrists. On 16 May MPs revisited amendments, and a month later—on 20 June—the House of Commons took a historic vote: 314 in favour, 291 against, marking only the first time such a bill passed the Commons. It now moves to the House of Lords, where 26 Anglican bishops and seasoned peers will debate its passage.

In this conversation from a full Two Women Chatting episode , Michelle and Kate Muir explore the often-overlooked aspects of midlife, particularly for women. They discuss the redefinition of the midlife crisis, the impact of menopause on mental health, the importance of HRT, and the need for better healthcare practices. They also touch on the benefits of wild swimming, the significance of vaginal health, the UTI scandal and the connection between hormonal changes and neurodiversity. Ultimately, they emphasise the joy and liberation that can come from embracing midlife and prioritising self-care.  Grab a cuppa and join the conversation! Kate Muir is a Scottish writer, filmmaker, former journalist, and campaigns advocate whose work has reshaped public understanding of women’s health—all with insight, passion and wit. Over the past few years she co‑executive‑produced two Channel 4 documentaries with Davina McCall: Sex, Myths and the Menopause and Pill Revolution , reaching millions and dramatically increasing HRT uptake Kate's new book How to Have a Magnificent Midlife Crisis is out now. Kate Muir I just think we've been neglected. Our midlife crisis has been neglected forever for women. And we really have a much more serious midlife crisis because our brains completely rewire around menopause and perimenopause. So there's about a 15 to 20 year brain change going on that nobody knew about until recently. And then, you know, we've got questions with our fertility, our families, we're looking after older people, our domestic burdens have changed. Maybe we have none. And I just think this is the great leap forward and we should really be enjoying it. And one of the ways we're going to enjoy it is if we know about our health and if we know about our mental health and if we can know about all the mad things we can do. Michelle Tell me about wild swimming - what are the benefits for us? Kate Muir It makes a huge difference to all of our mental health. It just gives us an enormous kick up the ass in the morning, a very joyful one. And a lot of the time you see the dawn, you see the sun and the weather never matters because if it's raining, you're already wet and you watch the big blobs of rain bounce off the water and you laugh. And somehow it just gives you a kind of whole piece of freedom to my life. Even just one dip a of a week really improves your immune system, really improves your brown fat, which burns energy much better. It just is really, really good for you. And there's these great studies they're now doing, which are also in the book on depression and swimming and the effect it has compared to antidepressants. The other thing I was thinking is we all think about our bodies and worry about our bodies, even though we've got quite mature bodies. And being in the showers with a bunch of naked women who really do not give a damn every day and there's people who have breast operations. There's people like me who've had three kids and have got stretch marks and a bit of a tummy - it just makes you feel so honest about your body. And we've all got these very different bodies from a Lucian Freud kind of magnificent body to a wee skinny body. And you feel like none of that matters. It just takes you back to your sort of essence. And actually even though I can intellectualise stuff about my body, emotionally, I'm still a bit of an idiot, you know? And so it was really, really lovely to kind of be in that world every couple of days and just feel like I am me, I am naked and I don't care. Michelle What I love about your book is it's thoroughly researched. You've got incredible experts that you have talked to. You also weave in a lot of stories of real people so you feel like you can connect on that level as well and you cover a lot of subjects. A couple of them, I can't go into all of them as you know because we were just saying it really does cover an awful lot but here's one I'd like you to just touch on if you don't mind and I think a lot of women of our age do experience this. Anhedonia . Kate Muir Well, that means so what a great word. It just means feeling flat, really, not taking any joy in anything - and that comes to a lot of people in perimenopause. So it crashes in there and you start feeling flat and not enjoying things as much because your oestrogen is lower and oestrogen works with serotonin in the brain and keeps it going and keeps you up - and when it's suddenly gone, it can take huge leaps and plunges. You can suddenly have quite a lot of crashes and be kind of just very sad and not want to go out. I don't think anyone is explained to us enough about these brain changes. So there's the business of the slight feeling of depression. Most women know this is not depression like clinical depression, because they know nothing's changed in their lives, but suddenly everything's a bit meh. Also combined with that, there's the rage because women get quite angry because their progesterone is decreasing too. The progesterone is really crashing and that is your calming GABA hormone. When that is right down very quickly, quite often, you just don't have that calm. You don't have that buffer and you're not sleeping so well because you've got that anxiety in the night -  that 4 a.m. wake up. All these things are conspiring against you together, so you're not getting enough sleep, your oestrogen is going down and suddenly sometimes peaking as well and you are just a hormonal orchestra gone incredibly wrong . But there are ways of dealing with it. Once you know what's happening, that is already a step forward because you can watch yourself from the outside and say, I'll be better in a day or two or I'll cope with it in this way. But what I realised writing this book and it is huge - we are not clearly talking about menopause and mental health.  I talked to the people who deal with people with serious mental health problems like being bipolar or serious depression and when you add the menopause or hormones or crash to that, that can really send people back into hospital. Psychiatrists and psychotherapists are really not trained in the menopause - and psychiatrists don't prescribe HRT very often, almost not at all. But yet there's a whole group of women from 45 to 55 turning up suddenly for the first time in their lives. Nothing has changed. So the serious mental health element, the appearance of things like bipolar disorder, serious depression, it's just not being acknowledged enough.  The connection with that and hormonal change. I'm really keen to educate psychotherapists and psychiatrists so I'm working with a couple of groups actually on that now as a new campaign to bring the hormones into people's heads and that conversation because it's so important. HRT makes a huge difference to the majority of women. Michelle You revolutionised menopause in many ways. Your incredible book, Everything You Need to Know Channel 4 documentary - Davina McCall: Sex, Mind and the Menopause About the Menopause, But Were Too Afraid to Ask, and then of course your documentaries that you did with Davina McCall. People still talk about that being the moment when people started understanding what was happening to their bodies. And we started that shift into not being scared about talking about it in public or being embarrassed or feeling like it's the beginning of the end, the shriveling up, the drying up.  It is a huge time of flux. But what still surprises me, and this goes back to HRT as well, we learned so much from that, but we're still not seeing enough change in the NHS because the 40 plus health check still doesn’t talk about perimenopause, menopause or osteoporosis.  Why? I mean, I know people like you and Davina, Louise Newson, so many incredible menopause warriors in this field like the menopause charity, Menopause Mandate. You all try so hard to be heard and yet a fairly basic change to this health check would change the lives of so many women by dealing with their health before rather than after. Let's not wait until that stable door has closed. Can you talk a little bit about that, please? Kate Muir Well, it's been really frustrating because we've been up there in parliament. We've been with Carolyn Harris. We've had a meeting on osteoporosis in the House of Commons. We've done everything and so has Menopause Mandate. What we need now is the NHS is just sitting there like a ‘fatberg’, not changing. But we also know that Wes Streeting is really interested as health minister in changing the NHS. My theory is we kidnap Wes Streeting for five minutes and explain to him how hormones work in the female body and say, Wes, how could you save, you know, four billion pounds a year? Give women who've got osteoporosis, before they get osteoporosis, give them oestrogen, progesterone - and testosterone is also good for osteoporosis. You could save billions. How would you reduce your diabetes bill by a third, Wes? Well, you know, guess what? HRT, getting your oestrogen right and getting your diet right, informing women, that will make a big difference too! Would it be good to lower cardiovascular disease, Wes? Yes, because women who take transdermal HRT are far less likely to get a stroke etc etc.. So, I mean, it's an absolute no brainer. The menopause charity have done a superb paper on this, which they did send to the government, which looks at all the signs in terms of longevity and better health, not just hot flushes, but the effect keeping your hormones going will have for the rest of your life. Also, it's not like we've got anything to prove. If you look at women who are in early menopause in their 30s and 40s, they are far more likely to get cardiovascular disease, osteoporosis and dementia . I think it is a crime that we are not getting that message out and we are doing the best we can. I'm hoping this book will do it because this book doesn't come labeled menopause because menopause only part of it. This book is about longevity . It's both intellectual longevity and bodily longevity and how we will come into our powers. I don't think people understand that menopause is a massive metabolic event that puts them at risk of diabetes and cardiovascular disease and osteoporosis  and all these things. And the minute they do, they are on it. Women are on it. You tell women the information and you give them the science, which is what these doctor influencers on Instagram and on television have been doing. It comes from women up because women are brilliant at protecting their own health and finding out stuff from one another. It’s a big piece of sexism, up there at the top. It's also a horror in the medical establishment that there are people out there with AI, with everything, that can now read the science papers that were locked up in universities. We are learning every day and if there's a new study, I get an alert on my phone every day and I work with groups of doctors. I just feel this is what someone in the NHS should be doing too. Michelle So we need to kidnap Wes Streeting. We also need to debunk myths. Another thing that you mentioned is “a crime   against humanity” is the report that came out over 20 years ago linking HRT to breast cancer. Now that has been debunked. Can you tell us the benefits? There's so many benefits of taking HRT . Of course, it's not for everyone. It's not possible for that to be right for everybody if there's, you know, certain underlying conditions or a cancer background or so on. But for the majority of women, Kate Muir I think clearly it's for mental health. I think it helps to keep us very, very sharp. I think it's really important for memory and all those metabolic things. One of the chapters in the book talking about HRT - because HRT makes you live about four years longer. You live a better life. You live a healthier life for longer, which I think is incredibly important. But I do have a chapter and there was a bit of a dispute of the title of the chapter, which is called ‘how to avoid midlife muffin top.’ My editors said, you can't say that about people. To which I replied, well, actually we need to talk about fat in midlife because it's a different kind of life. I am not fat shaming. I am fat explaining.  People need to understand that the kind of fat we build up in midlife is because our hormones aren't there. So when the estradiol, which is the great hormone you get back in HRT, when that leaves the building in your late 40s, early 50s, your body compensates by making a not so good oestrogen called oestrone.  And guess where it makes it? Round your middle like a little spare tyre. That midlife mop and top that hangs over your jeans, that sudden kind of sagginess in the middle, that is your body usually trying to build up oestrone. And your body reacts differently to protein, to insulin, it’s cholesterol changes. It behaves in a different way than it did 10 years ago. That's because it's trying to compensate - and that fat is strewn in it. That fat built up puts you at a higher risk of breast cancer as well.   It's really, really worth knowing that visceral body fat is not what you want .  And in fact, what you want to do, even if you're not taking HRT, is build muscle. You want to build muscle to burn that away and you want to seriously weight lift. Obviously that's very hard to say to people who are working 10 shifts a week in Sainsbury's, looking after their grandkids, living somewhere where there's not space to go to the gym or something. There's a lot of middle-class people telling other people who are very stressed what to do. But one thing you can do is get HRT to everyone and make sure it's the right proportions for them. And from that basis of having a body that is not desperately trying to compensate and make oestrone around the middle, you can begin to move on and make the rest of your life healthier. So often HRT is the first step off the ground that will just make you feel better and then you'll get off the sofa and then you'll start moving and your brain will be working better. So I feel really strongly about getting  this information out to everyone and not just a sort of Instagram elite. Michelle So that's another thing that is not discussed at that NHS 40 plus that you should be looking after your bones and having a dexa scan at the age of 65,  it's all a bit late then isn't it because then you could have bones that are like sponge. Kate Muir It improves bone density. We absolutely need preventative medicine and HRT is great. But the other thing, if you can't take HRT - and I went and did studies on this - because we did a big campaign called Give Your Bones a Break to try and get this message out. I looked at the kinds of exercise the NHS were advising people to do and what was actually working.  Walking around the block isn't really enough. It's something, but it isn’t going to really change what's happening to your bones. You've got to really stress  your muscles by lifting heavy weights.  So you want to be doing not the little pink weights! You want to have a decent number of kilograms, be pulling them up.  You can watch a five minute video. I do a five minute video off YouTube, but with quite heavy weights. Doing that and also jolting  your body, like doing a sort of arm lift and then landing, jumping down onto your feet. The jolting is really important because it wakes your bones up and it gets them working and bones work on hormones ,  So it's pumping, hopping, hopping also good. Skipping is good.  Storming up and down the stairs angrily. Very good for bones! But the numbers are interesting because HRT can increase your bone density between 7-10 % over a couple of years. The actual weightlifting in one trial in America increased bone density by 3 % in eight months. These trials are not done yet, but you may be looking at 5 or 10 % over a number of years.  That was really heavy weightlifting, including landing and jumping. So that's it. So lift heavy, jolt yourself a bit. And that is what makes a difference. And you could go and take one session or just get this on YouTube. A fantastic woman who's really good is called Dr. Vonda Wright, and she's on Instagram, and she's really worth following because she's into all that, and you can do these at home. Michelle . I think it's worth saying as well, that this is not going to turn you into Mr. Universe. It doesn't create enormous biceps that look somewhat unattractive. All it does is pinpoint that bone health and tone your muscles to help that protein be energised within your body for the right reasons. So every woman really should be doing some kind of weight bearing and it's not just a walk around the block. Let's move on to something that I know you're quite passionate about discussing and that is the great UTI scandal.  It's not something that you hear discussed very much, the great UTI scandal. I don't think I know a woman who hasn't had a UTI to be honest. I think everybody gets them but they can be really dangerous can't they? Kate Muir It's a huge cause of hospital admissions and sepsis eventually. And also even in the case of my own mum who had Alzheimer's and was living at home and she was 80 something and she got terrible UTI one summer when her carers didn't turn up for a couple of days and I was away on holiday and went into hospital and that UTI affected her mental health incredibly. And actually she never walked again. For older women, it's not just a bunch of antibiotics. It can really take away the last shreds of their ability and strength to hold on. So I was very aware of that, but at that point I had not heard of oestrogen having any effect on a UTI. Then I started talking to doctors and everybody was saying, well, know, oestrogen makes a big difference to UTIs. We get far less UTIs if we're taking oestrogen, particularly vaginal oestrogen, which should be called vulva oestrogen, but you know, you can rub cream or gel or whatever all over your vulva or take a pessary and it's all free on the NHS and you can do it for the rest of your life. And you can do it if you've had breast cancer. - doesn’t increase any risk of anything. There's a lot of different preparations out there. Everybody or pretty well everybody should be taking vaginal oestrogen one way or the other. If you've got HRT, it's already systemic in your body. So quite often we don't need it so much if we're on HRT, but it really, really helps. And what I came to understand writing the book, which was a joy, was...The Vagi Biome, the vaginal microbiome didn't know about that. Of course we all talk about the stomach microbiome with Tim Spector and how we need probiotics and all that. Nobody talks about the vaginal microbiome enough and 50 % of people have one! In there, there are all these bacteria and what I came to understand quite simply is the sort of good bacteria, lactobacilli, which are the kind you get in yogurt and kefir and things like that. You can also take a pill, which has that effect too, if you don't have the right lactobacilli. You need that to fight off the E. coli. I mean, when you think about it, it makes complete sense, doesn't it? We all know E. coli is bad, you know, and that's what's causing it. That's one of the things that's causing your UTI. So basically there's a war going on in your vaginal biome and if you arm your people down there with oestrogen, it helps increase the numbers of different bacteria, it makes it a sort of happy environment along with lactobacilli. I found, particularly I was missing something called lactobacilli rhamnosus and there's another one called chryspartis. There's about four different ones, but these supplements are often really good plus the oestrogen and I really don't get UTIs at all anymore. I used to be a bit of a UTI manufacturer and obviously it increases in your 40s and if you're prone to them, you're prone to them and so paying a little bit of attention to what is going on in your vagi biome and I just love it. I love that I've got a new word. I know what it does and I know I could change it which is kind of really liberating that we've just sat there and killed every piece of good bacteria with antibiotics. We don't need to do that anymore. We can maintain that healthy atmosphere down there. Michelle We're getting much better about talking about embarrassing body parts ‘down there’ and not using euphemisms for them so much. But when you think about it, it makes sense as you age, skin everywhere changes and gets more ‘papery’ and more wrinkled and dry. You pop a serum on your face to keep it looking more plumped up and you kind of need to do it there as well. Kate Muir Well, the interesting thing here is the cream increases your collagen down there and so it all gets softer and the tissue gets softer and it's better to have sex and it's less likely to crack or anything like that and cause an infection. So fantastic! We're all lovely and spongy down there - makes our life so much better. But I actually get it privately because it's nicer than the one on the NHS and it only costs me about 30 pounds every six months. There's been quite a few studies which I do in the book about the effects of oestrogen cream on the face. This is also, let's be clear, incredibly low dose eostrogen. You don't want to put your HRT on your face, which is kind of alcohol-based hard stuff. It is the very gentle stuff. And it's really interesting to think, well, of course, if your collagen's gone down by 15 % everywhere, why not pump it up? And, you know, there's a lot of fun things here that I'm learning. Michelle So one last thing I wanted to say about UTIs, because I've experienced this with my mother, is that you think that the symptoms will be the itching and things like that, but what we really noticed was she went a little bit loop-the-loop. We didn't understand what she was saying. Cognitively, she just completely lost the plot and we were really worried that, my gosh, is this sort of overnight dementia? She's talking like she's on something. And I think, you know, if anybody's listening to this and perhaps you've got an elderly parent who is not looking after themselves and they become very susceptible. I think we're 30 times more likely as women than men to get a UTI, look out for that sort of incomprehension, that like they're losing the plot a bit . Let's keep going with oestrogen because what I have learnt since I've been doing this podcast and doing a lot of research for different subjects, we have oestrogen everywhere on our bodies and you do touch on neurodivergence as we get into midlife and menopause . Often we can find that the symptoms that we didn't have before or we didn't realise because it used to be boys that were always diagnosed as having ADHD or autism. Now a lot of women in their 40s and 50s and 60s are finding that their symptoms are likely to be ADHD or even autism and that is partly to do with oestrogen, isn't it? The depletion of oestrogen is sort of magnifying those symptoms. Kate Muir Yes - oestrogen and progesterone and basically when that disappears, you're left with a kind of very raw you, angry you and there's a strange sort of clarity that also comes. There's been  a study out of Bournemouth University that shows that people who are already neurodivergent have really hard menopause  and it can really throw them off - they’ve found ways to cope and it can really cause chaos. But I interviewed a couple of people in the book who you wouldn't necessarily say that they were working, they were doing amazing jobs, they were living their lives, but they also were having trouble and they were masking all the time and being really careful with what they did and not knowing why they would suddenly have a freak out in a crowd or bouncing from one task to the other or whatever it was. I'm not a huge expert on neurodivergence, but they were great and I talked to a woman called Emma Heathcote James, who runs a huge organic soap company, and she could do 20 tasks at once, but she was just sort of exploding around the time of perimenopause. She got a diagnosis of ADHD and she realised that was why she was both good and bad at things is that she was jumping from task to task, but she also had that ability to hyper-focus. She had hyper-focused on her business and set it up and got her soaps into Waitrose and Sainsbury's and scaled up the business but she'd also found in her personal life, it was all really struggling. She hated taking the train to London, all sorts of things. She talks about her diagnosis and actually there's a bit of autism there too. It's not as simple. She says it's like the sort of Mac rainbow different colours, and you could be anywhere on that sort of rainbow and a bit of both. The other person I interviewed was Rose Matthews who discovered they were autistic and also non-binary in their late 50s. And they realised why they had been in so many jobs because they were the whistleblower. They were the person who'd seen things in black and white and called it out. You know, so in a way it's a superpower, but now they realise...I need to spend a couple of hours by myself if I'm going to an event. I need to have a place to sort of decompress afterwards. I need to schedule my train journey really carefully. And by that sort of level of self care and self knowledge, they are living a better life and they are happier. It’s a real joy to see because it's just people have been explained to themselves. Kate Muir I think one of the things of almost all the women I talked to who are in their 40s and 50s would be carrying this huge burden and everyone had a different burden. I think given the state of the world at this second, the idea that we will be healthy women in our fifties deciding I'm doing this for me and I'm also doing this for X people I want to help or work to work with or have a creative renaissance with but to consider ourselves and our powers, because we are magnificent, we're really experienced, we know what we're doing! Michelle So this is really what your book is all about, is finding that joy of the midlife crisis,  that it doesn't have to be the narrative of menopause is something to fear. We're gonna hurt all over, we're gonna be miserable, we're gonna be angry, we're gonna be sad, we're gonna be anxious. There is a lot of that narrative, but we do know what we can do about that, and we do know that a healthy lifestyle, HRT if it's the right thing for you, there are so many ways that we can apply these to ourselves and allow ourselves to prioritise our self-care. So I think what you've done with this book is really cover so many kinds of things that we can do for ourselves that doesn't necessarily have to cost anything at all, but just getting in our heads and making us realise that, at the age of 40, 50, 60, we still have got decades to live. I mean, we're looking, if we keep in healthy, in a healthy body, we might be looking at hitting a hundred more frequently, But we have to age-proof ourselves, don't we? Kate Muir Yes - there’s a woman in the book called Aviva Wittenberg Cox, who's a kind of business expert and academic. She's written about the four quarter life. So your first quarter up to 25 is because it is growing  and then your second quarter is achieving . So from 25 to 50, you're making your family, you're doing your amazing job or career, you're doing whatever and then from 50 to 75, she calls that becoming , which I really like. So you become the person you really want to be. And then from 75 onward, it's harvesting . But I love that 75, 50 to 75 block. And it might be younger for some people, you you've got to start your midlife crisis early if you can. But I think to come to that time in your life and not make a decision to think about what you want to do and how you are going to create differently, how are your relationships going to change? You can't just sit there and kind of dwindle away. Most of us are not going to have a big pension. It's just not going to happen. So we are going to have to work in some sort of way part time, probably for a lot longer. Do we want to give up being a teacher and become a part time geologist? Do we want to go back to university? You know, it is quite an exciting time to make a very odd decision, but I really think we need to have a midlife crisis. My friend who's in the book, who's a psychotherapist, Kalanit, she said, we've got to go to pottery classes together. I've been already, you'll love it. Everybody in midlife has a pottery class. You need it to be creative. And we went and did it for six weeks. I was by miles the worst in the class. And I ended up really, even on week six with just a little pile of mud in the middle of the wheel and the wall sprayed with stuff. And I realised I couldn't get my left hand to tell my right hand. I just couldn't do it. I totally failed that midlife kind of barrier, which was pottery. We ought to try all the things we think we might fail at too! Available online and in all good book stores Michelle We should give life a go, do the wackiest craziest things, go wild swimming, just go and do what you want, go and walk the length of England if you want to on the salt path. Do something and don't settle - and read How to Have a Magnificent Midlife Crisis by Kate Muir.

Tova Leigh joined Michelle on Two Women Chatting Season 9 - episode 9 So, joining me on Two Women Chatting is the brilliant Tova Leigh. She's a writer, performer and social creator known for her fearless honesty and razor sharp humour. From her blog, My Thoughts About Stuff to her viral videos and bestselling books like F'ed at 40, Tova has been empowering women to embrace their imperfections and speak their truths. So, whether she's tackling motherhood or midlife or marriage, she does it with a very refreshing blend of candor and comedy and I'm really thrilled to have her here. Thank you, Tova, for joining me today. Tova what a lovely intro. Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here. Michelle I have to confess Tova, this is the very first time that I've ever done an interview, and I've done hundreds now, that I almost don't know where to start because the more I get to know about you, the more I was researching you, the more I was like, she covers so much. She's like, she's funny. She's a journalist. She writes stuff. She fights stuff. She campaigns and she uses her voice. Where do I even begin? So help me find a base…. Where do we begin? Could you give me a little bit about who you are, how you came to have this enormous social media platform and the way that you reach others. Tova First of all, that's really kind. But I feel like I could say that about so many women. Don't you think that, Michelle? Like so many, right? Like all my friends. Honestly, if I had to describe any one of them, I'd go like, where do I start? When do you sleep? How do you manage it all? Right? It's yeah, for good and for bad. Because sometimes it's like, it's bad because you're like, I can't. Michelle Well, that is true. We are finding our voices, We don't know when to stop, do we really? Tova's Journey: From Law to Creative Expression Tova We don't know when to stop. Yeah, exactly. But I do, I have a lot of energy and I do have a lot of things that interest me. And I guess the short version of the story is that I'm turning 50 this year. I'm living my 50th year and I feel still like I'm 10 years old, not quite sure what I want to be when I grow up because I just want to be so many things and I want to do so many things. I started my career as an attorney. I practiced law for a few years in Israel, which is where I was born. And I was a very dramatic lawyer. just, I loved performing in court. I basically, I thought I was Ali McBeal, you know? So I was like completely over the top, ridiculous, but I couldn't understand why people were taking themselves so seriously. Obviously the topics were serious, but we're people. And I realised very quickly it wasn't for me. So then I did a quick pivot, as you do, into acting, which brought me to England, did a master's in performing arts, fell in love with performance, but also storytelling, just in general. And really I've always been a writer at heart. think I love telling stories. I love telling stories about people, about women. And I didn't like the idea of sitting around and waiting for some director to tell me that I got the part. So I started writing parts for myself. And then I did a bit, a few kind of like short films and, you know, did the whole festival scene, taught myself how to edit, taught myself script writing, all that. And then I met my husband, got married, had three kids in the space of two years, just realised, yes, that I couldn't be an actress and thought that was it. You know, that kind of part of my life was over. And as I was working in an office, as an office manager, I am basically slowly dying because I didn't have that creative outlet that I so desperately needed. I decided to start a blog and that was my thoughts about stuff. And this was 2015. Gosh, it's gonna be 10 years. Wow. And yeah, started the blog and honestly, I mean, I had never expected it to go the way that it did. I didn't have a plan. It would be such a lie to say that I went into this thinking I would, you know, this is where it would end up. I didn't, I just went with, with just what was coming. You know, the whole like say yes, when an opportunity comes, just say yes, figure it out later. Like that's how I always do things. I just say yes. And then I’m like we'll figure it out. know, when we did the first, cause I performed now, I've done a couple of tours. did a tour in America and I just rocked up one morning to the office and said to my assistant, let's do a tour in America. Like we've never done it, but let's just do it. Let's just do it and see what happens. And it sort of, it somehow worked out. so yeah, so since then the blog and, and then I started doing videos and books came after that and all the rest of it. and it's been bliss. Good Girls Gossip by Tova Leigh Michelle Right, so you've had a number of best-selling books and you've got a new book coming out, which is what I want to touch on, because I am loving that Good Girls Gossip is coming out on 10th of June - and you are reclaiming gossip. Tell me how they took it away from us and made it so ‘mean girl’. And really, it's all about sisterhood, isn't it? Empowering Women Through Community and Retreats Tova Yeah, so the book, the whole book is really about female empowerment and reclaiming not just the word gossip, but so many parts I think of womanhood and sisterhood that I do think we've been robbed. I started doing female empowerment retreats. This is how the book came about. So I've been living in Portugal now for nearly three years. And when I came to Portugal, thought, well, I'm now living in a country that actually is very sunny and warm. This is a great opportunity to do something that brings women together, but physically. So I've built this online community and women from all over the world are part of this community. And it's all really fantastic, but you don't get to actually meet them in person. And many women actually live in isolation, especially in remote areas, whether it's in the States or wherever. There's this sense of actually loneliness because we don't have women communities so much as, as we used to. So the idea was creating this retreat where women can come and spend time together and we put together a program. And then also, I have to say they go off and a stay in touch. It's like friendships for life. But beyond that, they went away with a sense of, I'm going to build communities where I, where I am at home. So. Michelle Right. Creating tribes everywhere. Tova Yes, creating tribes. And this blew me away because this again was not the plan, or at least I didn't think it was the plan and it became the plan. And then I had people write to me later and said, I went home desperate to find women's circles and realised they don't have women's circles in my area. So guess what I did? I created women's circles and now we have it. Like amazing. Michelle So it's this ripple effect that you've had through your retreats to empower women to go and find their voices and share those voices and find that sisterhood really. Tova Yeah. And that's the book basically. That's what the book is about. I try to bring the learnings from the retreats and all the topics we talked about in the retreat and the idea of creating those communities into a format that is more accessible to more women because obviously the retreats are quite small and they're quite pricey and not everybody can take time off. But I do think there's something there that can be very easily adapted take it and get a lot of it. And I just thought the book format is a really good way to get it out there to more people. And I tell a lot of stories about other women as well, because I take so much inspiration from other women. So it's of course part of the book. Michelle Now, gossip, which is the whole basis of the book, is it was taken away from us. It used to be a good thing. And then these days it's considered very negative that it's only mean girls and bitchy women who gossip about others. But tell us what the original meaning of gossip was and why we lost the positive aspects of it. Reclaiming Gossip: The Power of Female Connection Tova So I didn't know this either and I came across this probably around a couple of years ago and just came into my awareness that the word gossip originally didn't mean what we see it to mean today or what it means today. And in the most simplest form, I guess what it meant was, yeah, close friendships. It's what women did. So a lot of the times around, you know, giving birth. So women would be together in that setting and there'd be a lot of talk and it would be a transfer of knowledge and wisdom and yeah, and you know, just coming together, helping sisterhood, know, championing each other, just talking and close friendships. And then I guess over time when patriarchal systems started to come into play, And I guess women's, listen, women's greatest strength, right, is in our ability to communicate because we are amazing communicators. We bridge things. That's what women do. It's our superpower and communities, building communities. These two things are, are women's superpower. And imagine how threatening that is. Imagine. Michelle That's very scary, isn't it? Tova How threatening that is. So what would be the best way to stop that? vilify, vilify it, vilify the core of it. So yeah, so gossip at some point became over time vilified and, you know, got all these negative connotations, know, chitty-chatty women, chatting like, know, all these sayings, you know, and it's like, I do talk, malicious talk. Michelle of about people not to people wasn't it? it was kind of reframing it that it's always about people as opposed to just women or a group of women just chatting and as you say sharing knowledge. It didn't need to be or it isn't talking about Sandra wearing a short dress and looking like mutton dressed as lamb. You know, it doesn't have to be horrible. Tova Yeah, but the thing is, yeah, but it also can be about Sandra. And I think that we learn a lot from, I mean, I don't know about you, but I certainly learn a lot about, you know, my friends' stories. And sometimes I do talk about other friends, but not necessarily in a malice way. So for example, I'll have a friend who's going through something and I'll say, do you know what? But my other friend, she went through something really similar…., there's a very big difference between talking, am I allowed to swear on this podcast? Okay, so talking shit about someone and being obviously malicious and you know, and I don't know, even saying things that aren't true to taking people's experiences in life and using them as lessons in life, as life stories, like this is not a negative thing. We learn from stories. And again, think about how knowledge was passed down back in the day. This is exactly how it was passed down through stories about people. What are the stories going to be about if they're not about people? Of course they're going to be about people. So yeah, so that's kind of like where I was coming from. And it suddenly hit me when I even look about modern day, silencing women even today is such an effective tool in yes, stripping women from power. And you see it also in extreme cases, like, you know, things that are happening in certain regions in the world where Afghanistan where women literally are not allowed to talk to other women anymore, or rather in a group. It's not that outrageous because it's still happening today. And when women are called, you know, kinds of names now because they were opinionated or because they said something and it's all in an attempt to silence women and to yeah, to strip away that basic power that we have. for me, you know, the word gossip I know comes with a real negative connotation for a lot of people. They see gossip and they think about mean girls, gossip girls, what you just said. But it was very important that that title was actually on the cover of the book because it was like, no, I'm going to stand here and reclaim this word because that's not what it is. and yeah, and I value the time that I spend with my friends talking about our life and talking about each other's lives and talking about other friends lives because we learned from that and we're not, we're not doing anything bad. So that was like how the title came about. Setting Boundaries: A Path to Empowerment Michelle You talk a lot in the book about power, finding your power through various different ways and through setting boundaries, which I think women can be terribly bad at. You know, we're so used to putting ourselves last on the list of needs and priorities that we do forget to set those boundaries. And what I really liked was one of one of your quotes is, no is not a rejection. Tova Yeah. But you know, like, again, for me that, so we do a whole workshop, we actually have a whole day at the retreat that's dedicated to boundaries. And it's very important because boundaries, think make, they create a safe space. Like you, when you know that the person in front of you has boundaries, that they are aware of their boundaries, that they know how to keep their boundaries, then you know you're in a safe space because you know that you can bring yourself and you can bring your truth and there's no danger there because the person in front of you is a person that's capable of saying, actually, Michelle, that's my boundary here. And then you're clear, exactly. But what was really interesting was I think none of us like rejection. It's very natural. We don't want to feel rejected. Michelle and then we're clear, we know. Tova But once you reframe it as when someone says no, what all they've done is basically express their boundary rather than reject you. I found it so liberating. you know, so we have a whole workshop and we do it very early on. And that's why it's quite early in the book as well, because it just takes away that kind of like, you know, walking away, feeling quite hurt and making it about you rather than saying, actually, this is fantastic. And also I do believe that we mirror each other when we as women are able to exert our boundary. We show other women that actually, you know, having boundaries, expressing your boundaries is absolutely fine. And I do think again, there's a ripple effect, you know, it's an invitation for everybody to do that. The Evolution of Women's Friendships in Midlife Michelle entirely acceptable and of course it's the opposite of people pleasing which I think we fall into so much is that you know we don't want to you know cause trouble we don't want angst or it's easier to say yes often than it is to say no and then we end up overloaded and unable to cope and so I think boundaries are really important and I think midlife women are very very good now about talking more about prioritising themselves it used to be considered, I don't know, selfish. You know, we're supposed to be looking after family and relatives and friends, all those things, before we look after ourselves. you know, it's all part of putting that oxygen mask on, isn't it? That if we don't fill our cup, and actually you mentioned, which I really like, is getting other people to fill that cup too. That's a good idea because it doesn't all have to come from us finding our own energy and adding to it and adding to it we should expect some filling of that cup from the people that we surround ourselves with. Tova Yeah, and you're right. It's a very hard thing, I think, for a lot of women to do. certainly am part of that. I, you know, I'm a very capable woman. Like we're all very capable women, right? I can multitask in my sleep, you know, it's like, but here's the thing, like just because I can do it doesn't mean I should do it or have to do it or want to do it even all the time. And I do love that you touched on midlife because it's so true. I feel like I don't know, something happens to women when we hit 40, right? So much does it. Anyway, that's it. And I feel like it just gets better because I'm nearly 50 and I just know something big is coming. I already know it. And I have friends who have already reached 50 and they're like, just you wait, it gets so much better. Michelle I like to call it the F-it filter, like anything goes. Tova And I think it's good because I'm sure there's like so much psychology, by the way, that goes into that, you know, the stage you are in life, something happens there. It's probably hormonal, but it's a lot of things. And I definitely felt it when I turned 40 and that's when I started writing F***d at 40, my first book and it was like reclaiming what I've lost, putting myself in a priority list, thinking a lot about the whole like, am I selfish? Am I not selfish? Is it selfish? You know, and now that I've kind of like gone through all of that and with this book and nearly being 50, I'm not there at all anymore. I like, I'm not even debating the whole selfish question at all. I'm really thinking about that second part, the letting other people fill the cup as well. And actually, it's a much more gentle approach almost, like taking a step back, not by saying, I need help.. It’s just taking a step back and actually trusting and knowing that it's okay. It's enough. and, and that to me was harder than anything else because it's like a surrender because actually empowerment can look like so many different things. Obviously in the book we touch on pleasure and needs and boundaries and shame and lots of other things. But I also think that there's something to be said about just letting go. Michelle Yeah, that is empowering and also part of that is the boundary to just say, no, I can't tell you the times when I've said, no, I'm not gonna take that on actually, maybe you do that. Or it's like that weight that comes off your shoulders. I've been doing an event for five years and this year I put my family first, I said, I'm not gonna do that event. My gosh, it was like, literally, I lost pounds just mentally, just saying that. The Importance of Female Friendships Michelle Now, I want to switch slightly. You talk about friendship a lot and I do think that women's friendships change a lot in midlife and become more powerful. We become more selective. We perhaps don't need as many and we just rely on that wonderful bonding with less people but it means so much. Would you agree with that? That transition of friendships through a woman's life for a season, for a reason perhaps?  -in fact, is just a wonderful thing really. Tova Yeah. Wasn't there a research that actually showed that women, I think, well, women live longer than men. And one of the reasons I think that they've established is because of the connections and the friendships that women have. There's so many great things in life and I am very happy with my kids and lots of things, my work, all the stuff in my life. I feel like my friends are the, they're the cherry on top. Like they are the thing. Really, they are because there's nothing better than just spending time with women. can't take it. And laughing and just, it's the best. It's just the best. Women are so brilliant and funny, and you can say anything to them and they have shared experience. They get it. You know, you could have like the most amazing husband and, know, and a lot of women do. And my husband's great as well. And he, gets it and he really is, but he'll never get it. Like my girlfriends ever, ever impossible, impossible. And I'm very lucky. You know, we came to Portugal and it was like starting over. So obviously I've got my friends from the UK that I'm still in touch with. have a very good friend from Israel. She's probably my oldest friend who I speak to on the phone very often, but I haven't, I don't see her every day. And we actually voice note each other every day. we send each other podcasts every day, like podcasts. And it's, it's, again, it's so fun. like checking in, you know, so this is what's going on and this is what's happening. This is what I'm thinking. Michelle I love that idea of sending voice notes because sometimes you don't have time for a full phone call but if you could put down like ‘hey how are you I'm thinking of you I'm doing this today but I'll be thinking of you’  - I love that I'm gonna do that! Tova it's so good. Cause then you listen, you can listen to their podcasts like in the car or like if you're at home cooking, whatever you're doing and you're just like, it's in your ear and you're hearing her podcast. Exactly. It's so great. It's really great. but I, we've been really lucky cause actually coming out here, I've met such incredible women in such a short space of time. And I actually think being in a, in a country that is not my home or their home either because they’re from different places in the world. Navigating New Connections Tova So they don't have family. They don't have friends. I don't have family. We don't have friends. It's like it puts you in a place where you're like, right, we got to make friends fast and they have to be really meaningful very, very quickly. Michelle I know what you mean, I've done that myself because I've lived around the world and it's like speed dating, isn't it? Like, okay, let's find that connection really quickly. it's not just because of your children. I don't just need you as an emergency contact, even though I don't know if you have a criminal record! It's like, yeah, you get me, I get you, this is great. And it's like a really powerful quick connection that women are very good at doing. I think men often feel quite lonely and isolated when we're moving and really need partners who are good at that socializing to filter out who's going to be fun to be with, who's going to be supportive and part of that journey. Right, I want Tova Leigh It's very true, know, Mike's made lots of friends here too, but sometimes he comes home and I'm like, so what did you talk about? And he's like, oh, I don't know. So you were with them for three hours. What did you talk about? I mean, it's very funny. It's very funny. Michelle so meaningful - Beer was good though! Understanding Andrew Tate and Toxic Masculinity Right, so that's the great side about being a woman. I would like to switch gears because Andrew Tate. Adolescence - on Netflix Tova Yes. That's a very swift change! Michelle Andrew Tate, yeah it's a big old change because as a midlife woman it's taken me by massive surprise how and who is he? How has he managed to make kids hate their female teachers? How has he brought this toxic masculinity? And it is all about sort of de-powering isn't it? It's un-powering women. Can you as the articulate journalist and ex-solicitor that you are, tell me a little bit about who he is. Because I know my listeners are like, bit bewildered by this whole, like, movement. We don't really get it. How has he got so much power himself? Tova Have you watched the Netflix show Adolescence? Yeah, because I thought they did a really good job in showing, you know, I guess, yeah, I thought they did a really good job in explaining how this could happen to anybody. And it's funny because you talked about men feeling lonely. And that really, I think, is the core of how people are impacted. Michelle Yes, yes, amazing. Tova I mean, Andrew Tate is only one amongst many who talk and do the same thing online. It's the whole kind of incel, red pill, black pill ideologies, which basically empower men to go back to what it used to be to be a man, while at the same time, obviously belittling women and degrading women and etc. He specifically obviously has a very big platform and I think he was an kick boxer so he had a following. Yeah, and he's done like an online Academy etc. So I think he had he got a lot of publicity, but he's actually not the only one out there spreading this kind of toxic masculinity ideology etc. But what they do is they prey on vulnerable boys. So it's usually boys that are actually not necessarily the most popular boys, maybe not the most confident boys, maybe not the most attractive boys, I don't know, boys that don't necessarily have a lot of luck with girls. And they basically say to them, I will teach you how to be a man. I will teach you how to be a man that women want and that can get any girl you want. But they obviously don't use those nice words. They use a lot of derogatory words to describe women and girls. the ideology, the stuff that they say to them is very toxic because what they say is real men don't cry, real men don't ask for help. If you feel bad, go to the gym, not to the shrink. And yeah, and basically that's in the nutshell. And a few years ago, this has now been a few years, because it's like, so much has evolved since then, but a few years ago when it was like at the height, I did a talk at one of my kids' school because I devised a talk about what was about the dangers of social media in general, specifically TikTok, just because it was the youngest app and so many kids were on it. And then I also realised a lot of parents had never heard about Andrew Tate and I knew that the kids were talking about him on the school playground because my daughters were telling me so and my daughters were at the time 10 years old so these are 10 year olds right and so I devised this talk and the talk covered a lot of areas but one of the areas was toxic masculinity and I talked about how it impacts boys specifically and when I came out of the talk there was a dad sitting on the bench looking quite distraught and I was like, hi, are you okay? And he just went, I am in shock. He said, I now for the first time realise what has happened to my son. And he said, my son is 16 now and this has been something that's been going on for two or three years. Obviously now I feel like it's too late because he's 16. What am I going to do now? Take the phone away from him. Like, what am I going to do? But all the things that you were showing us in the videos that Andrew Tate says, and I now realise that my son has said, and I never understood why he was saying it, where he was getting it from, what this was. And he's isolated himself from his friends, he's in his room on his phone, all of that. And he was just completely in bits, this dad. And then I realised, my God, this isn't just happening somewhere in the world. This was my community. This is a father with a child that was older than my kids, at the same school. The Impact of Technology on Masculinity Michelle And it's sort of throwing it back as well at women because men have gone out to work, they're out of the house, and the women who staying at home and the female teachers are spending too much time feminizing men and making them weak, where they should be out there with the men, doing hunting and shooting and that kind of the old stereotypes of a father and his son have changed so much. Men don't spend as much time with their sons teaching them ‘how to be a man’ and the women of the house or the women of education are spending more time making them talk about their feelings and you know just emasculating them or at least that is the charge on them which is why it's scary for me to think how female teachers are being treated in schools right now. We have a teaching crisis when we need more teachers. What young woman is wanting to go into that environment to have such vitriol thrown at them? It's a really scary time. Do you think we'll be able to overcome this with education and awareness or films like Adolescence bringing it to parents who didn't realise that's why their kids were sullen and in their rooms and speaking so unkindly or not getting dates or whatever it was? Do you think we're going to get to the other side of this or, you know, we obviously have lot of work to do to redeem where the situation is right now. Tova Okay, people kind of like take it two different ways. Like there's a male, you know, there's like a male identity crisis. And then of course people get annoyed like, male crisis. I get it. Like it can be quite annoying to say that, but I do actually believe that that is true for young boys. I'm not talking about the old, you know, the older men who are maybe kind of like, I dunno, taking the, taking advantage of this moment to say, whoa, is me, but like the younger boys, you know, the younger boys. There is a gap there and that's why the likes of Andrew Tate have managed because there's a gap and always when there's a gap, it's an opportunity. So what happened and how I see it is women have come such a long way through the first wave of feminism to change in our place in society and of course it's still an ongoing but my point is that when you think about where women were fifty years ago to where we are today in the western culture - it’s like it's massive, but men on the other hand haven't gone through the same process. So men have stayed still. Like, yes, haven't really adapted, haven't really found, you know, their place in a way. And I do think that that gap is what has allowed all of this to sort of happen. Michelle kind of static in many ways, haven't they? Yeah. Tova But the second part of what I wanted to say is, do I see any hope or whatever? I always want to be optimistic and I do think education is key and I do think parents need to be aware. And I do think these conversations need to start very early at school, at home, everywhere. But I also want to say that while Adolescence and all of these conversations are great, the issue is that technology, which by the way, is at the heart of a lot of this because it makes a lot of this much more accessible than ever before. Because toxic masculinity was always out there. It's not like he didn't exist. But the point is that it's now much, much more accessible, you know, and it has a far bigger reach. but the thing is that things are evolving so quickly within the technology that we're already at the next phase. I mean, AI is just has, it has presented such horrific things that I can't even tell you. And again, people are only coming to understand now what red pill means, but AI bots that are talking to children now replacing relationships, bots that are called toxic boyfriend telling young girls not to tell things to their parents and objectifying them, rape games in schools. I mean, the level, it blows your mind. We're always going to be a step behind because it moves so fast, so fast. And I don't know what the answer is. Michelle I know almost regulation is almost too late at this stage because it is beyond that and you know maybe it is like banning phones for children under the age of 16 or something and maybe it has to be something but it's got to be kind of global because otherwise kids talk to each other there's always there's always a way. Tova Yeah, I do think, and I know a lot of people don't like that idea. I know I'm not a big fan of like, you know, big bans, et cetera. However, you know, there was a time where we all smoked on airplanes. Do you know what I mean? I remember in the 80s not wearing car seat belts. like, do you know what I mean? Using Humor to Address Serious Issues Michelle One of the things I absolutely love about you is you're so funny, you create this wonderful digital content, which is incredibly engaging and gets so many people watching you. But I think, you shine a light on a lot of different things through humour, which makes it really accessible. So like some of your videos about things that you would say to a woman that you would never think of saying to a man and we just accept that as the norm. Some of these kind of passive micro-aggressions if you want to call it, like, how much were you drinking last night or you might want to rethink that outfit if you want to be taken seriously at work. You'd never say those things to a man, would you? Now, and with your partner with Rhianna O'Connor, the two of you are very, very funny. My goodness, I was rolling on the floor laughing as they say. Do they still say ROFL?! I don't know. I think I'm stuck in the 90s here or something! But do you find that a really fun outlet? Tova Yeah, first of all, I love Rhianna. I met her a few years ago when I was doing pajama party and confessions on Facebook every Friday night. Basically an excuse to just get a little bit drunk in bed. That was it. And then she was one of the guests and we just fell in love instantly. She's a really good friend. And she's obviously a very talented singer and songwriter. So we do a lot of parodies together, which is great because it lets me live out my real dream, which was to be a singer, but I was never really good enough to be - so I guess I get to sing. I find that comedy is a really great tool to make things accessible. And I never considered myself a comedian ever, even though I do one woman shows and they are funny. But I think that, it's just such a great way. Cause when you say something and you make it funny and then people are a less threatened by it, you know? And secondly, some of them might wonder, wasn't it serious? Wasn't it serious? But you got away with it because you said it. So now it's out there, you know? It's Good Girls Gossip , reframing gossip for the good because it is empowering and it is bringing the sisterhood back together. We should love a good gossip. I've really enjoyed gossiping with you today Tova. Thank you so much for being part of Two Women Chatting and I'm definitely going to come and see you in your show on the 24th and I would recommend anybody to follow you on Instagram or any of your platforms and thank you for being the voice that is so passionate. You take on body shaming, ageism, sexism, you name it, you'll take it on. So keep roaring, you're amazing. Tova Thank you so much, Michelle. was a pleasure. Thank you. Tova Leigh’s book Good Girls Gossip  is out on 10 June.  Click here to buy . She is also doing a one woman show on 24th July in London called Honey I’m Losing It! .  Click here for more information. The full episode  is available on YouTube and all podcast platforms.  Please leave a review and tell your friends - that’s the best kind of gossip!

As schools and universities across the UK prepare to celebrate graduation season, thousands of proud parents are getting ready to watch their children walk across the stage and step into the next exciting phase of their lives. It's a time filled with pride, joy, and no small amount of emotion — particularly for parents about to join the "empty nest club." Between the mortarboards flying and endless photo opportunities, one thing’s for sure: you’ll need waterproof mascara and a stash of tissues tucked into every pocket! Graduations are as much a rite of passage for parents as they are for students. As the flurry of exams, ceremonies, and farewell parties winds down, the reality of a quieter home sets in. Whether your child is heading to university, embarking on travel adventures, or moving into their first flat, it’s natural to feel a swirl of emotions - pride, sadness, excitement, and even a touch of bewilderment about what to do with the suddenly empty fridge and quiet washing machine (there’s always a silver lining!). But this new chapter can be hugely positive, offering parents a chance to reconnect with themselves, their relationships, and even forgotten passions. Here are a few uplifting tips for navigating the empty nest transition: with my son at his graduation May 2025 Acknowledge Your Feelings    Tears are not only allowed, they’re practically mandatory. Have a good cry, share a laugh with friends, or ugly-sob into your partner’s shoulder - whatever it takes. You’ve earned it. Reframe the Experience Rather than focusing on the silence echoing around the house, think of it as your new personal spa retreat - one where you don’t have to share your snacks, queue for the bathroom or track down a dozen mugs and glasses. Reconnect with Your Partner and Friends With no sports schedules or midnight taxi services to run, you might rediscover how much fun date nights and spontaneous weekends away can be. Or, you know, just enjoy uninterrupted control of the TV remote. Stay Connected, but Respect Independence Resist the urge to track their every move but I’ll admit, knowing they were home or with friends at night (especially my daughters) by a quick check on the Life 360 app helped me sleep better.  Try not to become as addicted as my husband though! Celebrate Your Success    Graduation isn’t just about them -  it’s about you, too. You've raised a capable, independent human being. That deserves bubbles! While the idea of an empty nest can feel bittersweet at first, it’s also the start of an exciting new chapter - for you and for them. Embrace it with waterproof mascara, a sense of humour, and an open heart - and you might just find this is your time to soar, too. For lots of tips on navigating the empty nest check out my website’s midlife library at www.twowomenchatting.com . This article can also be found in Community Life magazine , June 2025 issue.

Michelle: So Tamzin, thank you so much for joining me. I'm really genuinely thrilled to talk to you because you are a bit of a dynamo, aren't you? You are literally the triple threat, singing dancing’s acting. But for all my listeners who may not know who Tamzin Outhwaite is, can you just give me like a teeny weeny summary of maybe your potted highlights. Tamzin: Career highlights, absolutely, yeah. So I would say I started, trained in musical theatre and drama and my first eight years of my career were in musical theatre, whether it was touring around the country or in the West End. And then I did a couple of bits of telly and then I got EastEnders. And then from then, what happened was, although theatre was my home, EastEnders and three and a half years learning my trade about how to act on television, all happened in front of millions of people. This was in the times when millions of people watched it. And since then, it's been, I would say, really a delightful journey. I mean, it surprises me and delights me still on a daily basis. I still absolutely love it. And I would say I go try and do theatre at least every couple of years because it feeds me and reminds me why I'm an actor. Michelle: A lot of actors say that, how they're drawn back to the stage because it feels that's like where you cut your teeth when you're in acting school and it's that camaraderie and rehearsal time and that living in the moment. And you just did Abigail's Party, which of course is like a fabulous Mike Leigh production. Good to be back on the stage, I would imagine. Tamzin: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, so last night I actually did go to the theatre with one of my co-stars of Abigail's Party and the director of Abigail's Party. And we're still in a little bit of a cloud, a fluffy bubble about it because we had such a wonderful time and it was very successful. And I think that reminded me that, you know, I do just love it. And I'm now doing a television, I'm doing a Channel 5 series. So I'm up and back and forth to Birmingham. And it has different qualities. And I do adore doing television and playing different characters and then they're done. But there's something about the theatre that you never have to watch it back so you don't have any, you know, criticism or ego about it. It's basically you're in it, you're in the moment and the immediacy from the audience, how you affect them is probably the root of why we start acting. So that instant gratification, or it's not even gratification, but the instant way that you affect an audience in whatever way that is, is almost addictive. Michelle: I would imagine it's that dopamine rush isn't it that that fix that that connection every night could be different it could be a different part of the play that really gets the reaction unexpectedly Tamzin: Yeah, absolutely. And of course, what we were doing was a comedy that on so many levels was a tragedy as well. And I suppose being, like you just said, in that every night, being in the moment every night, some bits hit harder than others for you as a performer, but also for the audience. And yeah, it's just an absolute pleasure to do something that you love doing. I'm not saying every job gives you the same, you know, buzz and dopamine. It doesn't, but generally you can find something in every job that you learn from. You can find a friend on every job that you get inspired by and you inspire. Every transaction as an actor feels important, especially as I get older. Michelle: Let's talk about that then, because you just mentioned friends and friendship. And what I have seen from you is that friendships are incredibly important. And you have bonded and forged friendships with sort of a girl squad, if you like, or a number of girl squads. I really admire that about you, that those friendships, those relationships are so important. Do you think they've become more important in midlife? Tamzin: Yeah without a doubt.  I mean, they've always been important, but I don't think that I really knew and acknowledged the power of women until I got older, because it feels like women get more powerful as they get older. like the transferring of power from friendships is a wonderful thing, being able to give that back to your female friends. I mean, I'm just very, very lucky, but also at the moment, because I'm single, I suppose, I have very many male platonic relationships and I have many female friendships. I don't feel like I have time for romance because, yeah, because the great loves of my life, I'm so fulfilled by them. Michelle: really? Tamzin: my children, my girlfriends, my male friends, my family. I kind of feel like it doesn't feel like anything's missing. And I don't know if I'm just at that stage in my life where a romantic relationship is kind of a bit null and void because I get so much from everything else. Michelle: you referred to it as lucky. I don't think it is lucky. I think it's, get out what you put in with friendships and you get the trust that you earn. So, I mean, lucky is a lovely way of looking at it, but I really think that, you know, when you spend time and especially, I think in your forties and fifties, as you become a different kind of woman and you're embracing different kinds of challenges, but also possibilities. And I think you do that. Don't you? think you're quite brave in your choices. Tamzin: Yeah, I'm getting braver as Donna Ashworth's book did teach me, which I got. Yeah. It's fantastic. And I honestly, I will read a little poem from that quite often, you know, a couple of times a week. And it's just affirmation, isn't it? It's just reconfirms to me that I'm on the right path, that it is right to be brave, that it's okay to challenge yourself, step out of your comfort zone. It's not time for me to sit down under a blanket and just watch TV at the moment. And so I suppose, you know, it's a very interesting and experimental time in my life. And it's at this stage, is, it's kind of a surprise. Michelle: Well, I can see that through some of the, some of the work that you've taken on or some of the challenges like the Masked Dancer, Strictly come dancing at Christmas. You are putting yourself out there for potential failure, but I mean, you got 39 out of 40, not bad with Nikita! Got to hand you it, but you are. And I think that's the bravery of a woman in her fifties is that we've kind of got the F-it filter. We're not bothered. you know, we can fail and we can get back up again, it doesn't bother us as much. Tamzin: Yeah. And also learning that it's from the failures that you learn. When you work that out, it's like, feels like failing is almost important. Failing at relationships, failing at... That's how you learn. You don't learn from being continually successful. So I think, yeah, it's being comfortable, isn't it? Comfortable with failing. Michelle: That's true. Now you're also very, I think you're very positive about aging, which I think is wonderful. And you know, there is so much talked about menopause and the symptoms and the bad bits, but I do wish that we could change that narrative a little bit and flip it because menopause is one day in your life and then you've got the rest of it, which happens to be really quite long these days, hopefully, if you look after yourself. Would you like to see it being approached more positively? Tamzin: This is it. Yeah. I mean... Well, to be honest, when I started going through it, mean, everybody around me was like, I feel like I'm going crazy. I mean, the symptoms, when you actually looked into it, there were so many symptoms and they all seemed pretty negative, as you say. But then perimenopause goes on for a long time. Menopause, as you said, is a day and then it's done. Now it's not done. It's the beginning. For me, it feels like a rebirth, but I had to go through some messy bits. to get to the rebirth. So the messy bits were like, a friend of mine saying, you know, get some HRT before you start getting the rage, before you start getting the sweat. So I was actually, I was ahead of the game because of people like Julie Graham and Kate Thornton who called me and said, you know, please do something about it because I didn't do something about it till I had three months of speaking to my partner and my kids or whatever terribly and it was them that said and I definitely at the time had a couple of moments with my partner at the time Tom and my kids where they were like mum are you all right and they were taking the mic out of me but instead of finding it funny I'd be like what and then I'd start crying now I just love it when they take the mic out of me because it means they're listening and they love me and they're safe enough to do it but really at the time I was, I didn't know why I felt, the main thing I would describe it as, it was I was spinning a lot of plates, looking after some people, running, you know, running different little businesses, as well as trying to be a good human, trying to keep fit, trying to stay in the loop work wise. And whereas that had always been just the level of commitment that I had to different things, suddenly I couldn't do it. I couldn't hold the plates. anybody coming, yeah, I was overwhelmed by everything and anybody coming to me with a problem that normally I would have fixed like that because I suppose a lot of women are fixers for everyone else and they're in communities and society. We're holding up an awful lot. And generally you find that it's the woman that's nucleus of that that's doing that. So when they get to the menopause and they don't have the support, no one knows really how to support them. So everybody around them has to also learn about the menopause. But I think... Michelle: That's key. You're so right because it's not just us. It affects it affects our partners and our kids so much. you know, it's great that there is much more education and awareness around it, but it's still weirdly, I think does come as a blow. You said you're kind of surprised that how you you felt… Tamzin: Yeah. I was, I couldn't believe that I was, became, I felt so incapable and I'd felt such an incapable human being up till then. I mean, definitely scatty, definitely ADHD, definitely messy, definitely disorganised, but I would still make my deadlines. My kids would be at school, their food, you know, but just the way I did it, my mum was a hippie. And I suppose my route to doing that was always a bit scatty. But when it came to work, I was on the ball, I knew my lines, you know, it was just socially and stuff where it didn't matter so much. I've always been a disorganised human, I suppose. But when I hit the menopause, I couldn't even, like, the school run and dinner felt like massive. like, I've got 17 emails to answer. I couldn't even, the idea of doing one was awful. Michelle: Can I touch on that then? Tamzin: So I think then that's when you realise obviously it's about your hormones dropping. And the   minute I got on HRT and worked all that out, of course you have days like it, but it's very doable. And also you reframe everything because suddenly it feels like, my God, my power's come back and this is a rebirth. Because now it's exciting. And also my female friends are going through the rebirth at the same time. So suddenly everything feels kind of sparkly   and ... Michelle: Great word for it! Sparkly! Yeah, possibility and sparkly! Tamzin: Yeah, possibility and the hope. And then I felt like I got my ‘ready break’ glow back because I always felt like somebody that could, and I'd recognise other little ‘ready break glows’ when people's energy was good energy, positive energy. And I felt like I lost that when I started hit perimenopause.  But when it starts to come back, It's just a wonderful thing because it's new as well. Liberating is a great word. Michelle: Liberating, isn't it? Can I just touch on something that you said about your being so disorganised and scatty and you mentioned neurodiversity and ADHD. One thing that I learned fairly recently is that, you know, ADHD exacerbates, if you were never diagnosed with it, so many women in our phase of life suddenly exhibit the signs of ADHD in a much more obvious way. And it's because our oestrogen is reduced. tamzin: Yeah. Yeah. Michelle : But I had never realised that. And I think, you know, so many people are like, you think you're ADHD? You know, it's just the menopause, but it can just be, boom, we've got both, you know? And I think   I would love to get that message to women as well, to not feel embarrassed that they're, you know, they miss appointments and they're late and they lose things and all other things. It could be, you know, the hormonal change, but it could also be undiagnosed ADHD. And it's always worth going to chat to your doctor about it. Tamzin : Yes. I know. mean, I've got one that's that is diagnosed, one child that's diagnosed with ADHD. And I often think I've got it and then I'll meet people who definitely have been diagnosed and they're like, no, you're there's no doubt about you. And and people recognise it in each other, I think, because you're having a conversation, you can go off to that conversation to make pies appear, can thank the Lord and whoever the universe that the magpies have appeared, you can go off on that tangent about the magpies and your mum and come straight back into that conversation that we were just on and hit the same point. And I think that that's a classic sign, I think. So, yeah, I think I notice it. But, you know, who knows, I might not actually have it. I might just be, as my dad would say, you know, jumping on a trendy bandwagon. Michelle: I don't know about that. I think a lot of creative people do display those symptoms as well. tamzin outhwaite (15:34.083) Yeah, I agree. And also, I think it is a superpower when you're creating because you can hyper-focus. You can get completely unfocused, but also you can really hyper-focus and then almost get obsessed with things to make them. Michelle (15:50.99) decision-making, yeah, SOS, know, emergencies, you're good with all of those things. I want to get back into sort of the friendship thing because I think that your bonds with women, think really lead into perhaps, you're very well known for being advocate for women, for campaigning towards mental health, for really supporting women. You're a woman that walks the walk, doesn't just talk the talk. And I really admire that about you. Can you tell me, is there something about your life, what is it that drives you towards just helping other women all the time? tamzin: You know what? I feel like when my mum died, which is now six years ago, six years ago, we're seven in April, and when my mum died, I felt like I was given a superpower to take over from her. And it sounds ridiculous, but spiritually, I feel like I'm morphing into her or trying because she was an incredible human. And she was very much about helping other people, whether it was a man, woman, child, whoever. It was something in her that I think she knew she did it well and she was appreciated by people that she helped. And watching that and then experiencing the wave of grief that so many people that I don't know also went through, people that she helped get a mortgage, people that she helped when they were homeless, people that she helped that were a refugee. So there was something in her that naturally was very kind and empathetic. And the empathy that she had, I think I've always had, but it's almost like since she left us physically, I feel like spiritually. I've had a rebirth myself and I often think, is that because my mum's just guiding me in the right way? Or is it something that's happened to me just because of age? But I think I'm a very open person because I'm in a phase of my life where that's the only way that I could live. Open to possibility, open to spirituality. You know, as I'm talking to you now, a Robin just landed out there and my mum's been the Robin and we always talk about the fact that, look, mum and my kids will be like, nanny. And so we'll talk to the Robin. And so I just feel like she's with me and she's watching me. And I think I always had it in me, but it was absolutely accelerated into a whole new wave of, of course I want to help other people. Why would you, what else would I do? Yeah. Michelle: Stepping into her shoes. Yeah, that's another Donna Ashworth poem right there, isn't it? All about, you know, handing generationally our wisdom through women down the line. Exactly. Well, so that has now driven you to create We Free Women, which I've been watching and observing and the work that you do, if you can explain it, you'd explain it far better than me what you do, but it's a beautiful project. tamzin: Yeah, of course. I bet. Yeah, it's well, it's a CIC, which is basically a community interest company. And so it's completely nonprofit. And the first one, I just I financed myself and we did it in my home. And we had 10 women and it was all born from Instagram. So I was on a retreat in the Dolomites on my own because I like to do a solo retreat and this only came about since I hit perimenopause where I couldn't hold everything together. So I would go on a solo retreat. would refill my own cup basically because our motto is you can't fill, you can't pour from an empty cup. So then I would come back into my life, rejuvenated and also with boundaries where I could not take on that energy. it's just really, it's self care, it's mindfulness, it's the stuff that really my mum always practiced without having labels for it, I suppose. And then when mindfulness became something that I practiced, it came from her. She talked about it first to me. And then I went, so I went on a retreat two years ago now, actually this week two years ago, and I had lots of different treatments and it wasn't like just massage and facials, it was a shamanic healer. And so I had this incredible session with this shamanic healer and at the end I said, I'm really sorry I fell asleep. And he said, you didn't fall asleep. He said, you were shaking the whole way through it. Yeah, and I said, wow. Anyway, he said, go back to your room. He said, don't go on your phone. He said, just allow whatever's happening to come through you and go and lay down. And I did, and I laid there for a few hours. And I just remember that night, I wanted to thank the retreat for how I felt because I felt like something had cleared. Bearing in mind, he did an awful lot of healing over my womb, which was probably unhealed stuff. And then that night, I thanked them on Instagram and said what I've had. And basically, the amount of women that just were like, this is what I need. Oh my God, I wouldn't be able to get away from my kids for two nights. Or I don't have the money for a retreat. Of course, people paying for it, it's like thousands of pounds. can't just... And I thought, yeah, but how this could help so many people. It's almost like, it felt like it turned a tap on inside me. That was... I have to keep this up for myself, but also now I know how this is helping in my own family unit and with myself. That ripples out, that filters down to everybody else, me being a better human, a kinder human, a happier human, it all trickles out. And I just basically on Instagram was like, what an amazing idea. And then I started to kind of connect with people and then suddenly there were all these practitioners that were coming on going, I'd like to help, let me help, I volunteer, let me do this. And probably within 24 hours, I had a team of people and I stopped on my own retreat and I started what felt like organising a festival. It was just like, well, I'm just gonna cancel that massage for now because this is my new self there. Yeah, and it felt like... Michelle: That's your purpose right there. tamzin: The first retreat was the most magical thing ever because us as Retreat Angels, or now they're my co-founders, I have six co-founders who are all incredible. Two of them were good friends of mine anyway, and I knew they'd be brilliant and they offered. And the other four I met through Instagram and through bringing them onto retreats. So I have Chrissy, who was basically our head chef and now she's a co-founder. She's nutrition, food. I have Becky, who does all of our comms and so much more. And with Jen and Rachel and then my two friends, Maria and Kath have come on. Maria chooses the women and vets them all and Kath does so much. And we basically, between us, we have started what feels like a movement because we've got so many people that we work with now each time and everyone still does it for nothing. Everyone's a volunteer. We pay their travel expenses and I think what's happened is it's done as much for us as it has for the women. It's life changing. So for instance, we just did our fifth retreat last June and we're doing our sixth one in two weeks. And last June, the one that we did in Kent was just, I mean, the women came in and we had our welcome circle, 10 women. tamzin : they came in broken. had people from people that were terminally ill that had cancer that were young in their thirties to women who were struggling with the rest of their family and addiction. Women that had four kids and they just found out their husband was having an affair and they were pregnant. So these women needed to have a break from their own life to almost find out about their own power, learn the tools that we were gonna teach them so they could go back into their own life and feel their worth a bit more and work out what makes them feel good. I mean, it's literally breath work, a bit of exercise, yoga, walking in nature, foraging, nutrition, cooking, talking. I mean, it goes on, mindfulness, simple stuff, cold showers, stuff that doesn't cost anything. Michelle: That's really important, Tamzin, that you say that because I see that a lot in what you're doing. It's something that all women can do if they find the time and they work out how they can use these completely free resources, air, nature, water. We can all access that, but we forget to let ourselves and to give ourselves the time to do it. Tamzin : Yes, I mean we had women that arrived that said, I don't think I've taken a deep breath for years. Because it's almost like they were holding their breath whilst holding it up for everyone else and then they would hit heavy menopause and they couldn't. So we've had one retreat that's been kind of had a theme of cancer where the nutrition and the talks were based around that. We had one that is menopause where the women are just like just ill-informed, but being bombarded with a lot of information. And they have to work out what works for them. So we have this wonderful woman called Louisa Bradshaw White, who does ecstatic dance and breath work. And we try to end with the ecstatic dance. It's like a silent disco, and she takes you on a journey of an hour through music. And everyone has bare feet, and they're on the grass, so they're grounding at the same time. Michelle: But that sounds fun. Tamzin: And it's just, that's the one thing, I mean, we do join in a lot, but our angels, the people, all of our volunteers, we all join in that, so we all come together. And we've had the most spiritual experiences where we've all ended up cuddling in tears, dancing, and where it takes you, it's like, it's therapy. It's therapy without sitting down and talking about your problems. It's feeling them, letting them exist, letting them rise and dancing through them. That's what it feels like. Yeah. Michelle: and letting them out. There'll be people listening to this who thinking, my gosh, that's exactly what I need. How on earth could I be considered for this? So it must be really hard for the people who go through the nominations and applications. You'd want to include every single person. How do you handle that? Tamzin: Of course, I mean, that's, well, we could do one every weekend and still not help enough people. An awful lot of it is finding a group that we think will blend well because they go off with a new support network and a new WhatsApp group and every one of the last five retreats, they're all still in touch with each other. They've made friends, you know, some people went back after retreats and they started the company that they've wanted to for years. They wrote the book. They left their husband that they should have done 12, 15 years ago. Things like that. It's really about reconnecting with yourself. So I think the way that people have to actually apply, normally they are nominated by someone else. So someone's sister, someone's mom. We've often had a sister nominate their sister. And we've worked out that actually they both should come and they've come and shared a room and gone through it together. And we are trying, we work retreat by retreat. So it's not like we've got plans ahead. We have to be really flow like water because things change all the time and some people can't make it and we all have families and our own jobs. And so this next one, for instance, Maria has just chosen the women and We have a database now of an awful lot of women and we're trying to go to different areas and then being a community interest company we're trying to use practitioners in each area so that you form a network for them. So then when we leave Somerset there's a little network that we've created in bringing people together with yoga teachers and people and nutritionists and masseurs. Michelle: So you're creating these pockets all over the country and women are finding their tribes that once they leave they've still got that support ongoing potentially for years. New friends that they've made. tamzin: Yeah! Yes, that's exactly it. I mean, we've all been in tears reading messages at times where, because we come off like our, we have mental health Joe and Hannah, we have these mental health experts who are incredible that come onto the retreats to support them if anything comes up. And they've become really solid members of the team as well. And so sometimes we'll get forward in a message that's come from one of the groups that's, you know, a year, from a year ago, and they're still, still thanking us. Yes, yes. Michelle: ball keeps on rolling doesn't it because you're creating the momentum and you're creating the ripples that are going out they'll tell a friend you should look after yourself try more self-care carve out time for yourself so what you're doing has this enormous ripple effect tamzin: Exactly. It's the ripple effect. then people stop. I mean, our cups fill up from the people around us and then we pass that on. mean, for the actual, Chrissy will be making the food in the kitchen. Rachel will be bringing straggling yoga mats from here, there and everywhere onto grass. Becky will be doing everything. Maria will be bringing in the guests. Kat's doing food and this. mean, Jen's doing this, we're all, and we don't all go on every retreat. We sometimes call in people that just keep contacting us saying, can I help? I wanna do something. And they want to feel the love. So we'll be in the kitchen and we, it's very much the practitioners. We have our little uniform and the women are outside with, know, practitioners and we're where we are in the kitchen. And someone will come in going, my God, I've just been in that session. tamzin: and that lovely woman is really opening up and it's really wonderful. And then we'll go and watch for a bit, you know, and just support. And then we'll all be in tears. And then we go back into our kitchen and we're like, I'm so pleased. You know, just at what we do. And it affects us too. It reminds us, it reminds us why we started it, you know? It's really, really something. I know. Michelle: It's so fulfilling. Your mum would be so proud of you. You must feel that. that's just such, I mean, you said you had a Robin outside the window. Now I can imagine she just keeps watch over you and she can't believe the difference you're making to women's lives. This made me quite choked actually. tamzin: Me too. I really do think she can see it as well. Yeah. It's two years this week that, two, yeah, our first retreat was in three weeks time, yeah, two years ago. But what I thought of it in the first week of Feb. So it feels like it's, and the fact that, you know, none of my co-founders have dropped out. It's not. Michelle: I think so. you are amazing. tamzin: you know, we literally have five grand in the bank. M&S give us all the food every time. And what we do is with that money now, we normally rent a place. So most people give us their places for nothing, which is wonderful. But when we find somewhere that's perfect for it, we did rent a place once on our last retreat. And that's where the expense is. But they did a really good deal for us. And it was so perfect because there was a yoga room and there were peacocks on the land and the place was beautiful. Sometimes we forfeit stuff because someone's going to give us a place. You know, we are literally in bunk beds, but we're trying to give everybody there a room each so that they can... On the first retreat, it was literally in my house and there were people sharing rooms, beds. So we've obviously moved on from that. But yeah, I think when... Michelle: how beautiful. You've evolved from that. tamzin: I think when people are being gifted it, there's not a place really they don't complain about, know, they're just really, and they're so grateful. And the best thing I think about it is when these women arrive, a lot of the people that we choose are the ones that say, listen, I don't think I deserve this. When you're having the Zoom with them. Michelle : They're just appreciative of everything that you do. tamzin: They're always saying, I don't deserve this. I know people that deserve it much more. And normally you find they're the people that really need it. Because they just so, yeah, that's it. So what we try and teach them is if you put yourself first, your cup will be full. So, yeah. : They always put themselves last, don't they? Always at the bottom. Everybody else is above. Michelle: and it can overflow and help others. Do you think it's really helped your grief journey then? Must have done, yeah. tamzin: Yeah, as part of it, massive part of it, without a doubt. Because also I've been in situations doing breath work or where I've felt her presence. So without a doubt, yeah, I do feel her around me. And I'm very lucky because each and every one of my co-founders is, I mean, we've trauma bonded in some, when I say trauma bonded, I mean like we've seen and been through things all together. That means the friendship is kind of on a different level. I suppose it's like when I did Freeze the Fear, I did this thing with Wim Hof in the Dolomites. And Gabby Logan and I, we all shared a massive tent for three weeks. And Gabby Logan and I hit a different level of friendship because we all did this breath work and she felt my mom. I didn't know her and she came over to me at the end and went, your mom's here. And we were all in this, Michelle (34:17.609) yeah, yeah I can imagine. Michelle (34:41.486) That's incredible. tamzin outhwaite (34:43.126) breath works and a lot of people are crying or going through things and she just came over and she held me and she went, your mum's here. And I said, I know. And she just went, oh, makes me tear up now. And she said, she just wants you to know she loves you so much. I was like, oh my God. And afterwards she did her interview and sh e said, I don't know Tamzin's mum, I've never met her. I don't know Tamsin. Michelle: That's beautiful though! tamzin: She said that that was, and she had a brother that died. And I think she's open. She's an open human, but I don't think she's ever experienced anything like that before. And so of course. Michelle: that connects you in a way that is just unbounding, isn't it? That your mother went through that channel to get to you. That's so beautiful. tamzin: Yeah, through Gabby Logan. Without, yeah, it is beautiful. And also my mum was Italian and we were in the Italian mountains. Michelle: how perfect. Perfect. tamzin: So, yeah, yeah. So I definitely feel like, yeah, the grief journey is, everything I'm doing is helping the grief journey. And it doesn't end the grief journey, you know. Michelle: think for anyone going through grief, that it's a real roller coaster. It can hit you in the face when you're in the supermarket and you see her favourite biscuits. Like today, there can just be moments when you see a Robin and it's like a punch, isn't it? A punch to the gut. Or just like a powerful feeling that comes over you. tamzin : Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it feels powerful to me now. It feels powerful. But you kind of have to flip your own narrative a little bit. You have to help that along. Because I think it's very easy for grief to just be dark and sad. And actually, it's not. There's so many other elements to grief, which are. You know, the powerful, watching, like, knowing that my mum is guiding and helping more than just me is really comforting. Michelle: Yeah, you're channeling that grief into something so purposeful that you can't fail to have your heart full and to help it, you you carry on your journey. As I said, she, without doubt, she would be amazingly proud of you. Well, I know that people listening to this, not only that will there be people who would love to be on those retreats, but they would love to help. So how can they help either financially or offering their services? I don't want you to be overwhelmed, but you're probably... tamzin: Yes. So, yeah, I mean, all, no, we always, we never turn down help, really. We always need it at some stage. So if you go onto the website, which is www.wefreewomen.org , on that website, there is a donate button, there is a volunteer button, and there's also how to nominate someone you think deserves it. Generally, we are trying to, We're trying to be guided towards women that can't actually afford it because I think it's those women that they never get a chance to go on a retreat. And it changed my life going on retreats without a doubt. So if we can find women that financially are struggling, that is the first thing I think. And everything after that, I mean, we've got, I've got lots of people that come to me and say, can afford it, I know I'm not financially, but I want to experience a We Free Women retreat because all of those testimonials of it's changed my life. checked, you know, they're a massive advert for what we do because you speak to any one of the women that we've helped and they will all give you a really honest and incredible testimonial about what it's done for them. So we have got people asking us that can afford it. So we're thinking of finding a way to do these retreats where we do one retreat and people pay, the people that can afford it pay. So we just do retreats with women that can afford it. And that we call it the pay it forward retreat. And that retreat pays for the next group of 10 women who can't afford it. So we're all about paying it forward. and then we created a retreat called Pay It Forward. And instead of, because it's non-profit, instead of that obviously coming into We Free Women, it just goes straight onto the next retreat and we help another 10 women. So it helps the soul of the women that can afford it and it makes them feel like they're doing something. And that's what we are, we're a revolving door of helping women. But also, the best thing about it is our very first retreat, they came up with a great idea because we're always still... moving and evolving. And the first retreat, the 10 women, they were so enamoured by the amount of love they were receiving that they said, can we please volunteer on the next one? Can we volunteer so that we become the angels? We said, it's a great idea, but I think mixing people that we've helped, bringing them into the kitchen or whatever, might be a bit tricky, mixing the... And also, Michelle: They need to have their own journey, don't they? They don't need to be told what's coming or how to react or any of those things. tamzin: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And also there is something about keeping it's their anonymity is very important. Like when we're posting pics of everything, we don't show them because some people went there in confidence, you know, and secret and didn't tell people, but they knew they needed it. So yeah, it's it's an ever evolving being at the moment, but it is a movement and I'm very proud of it and how it touches people, the way that it touches people when then they want to help again or is just really that's magical. Yeah. Michelle: extraordinary isn't it and that is the power of women I think when women genuinely support women we are absolutely off the charts with what we can offer. Amazing. tamzin: I know, really are. You know what they say, don't you? They say, if you want something done, ask a busy woman. And that is, that somehow I have these five, six co-founders who are extremely busy, but they love doing it so much. Yeah. Michelle: They find the time, they find some way of doing it. You are teasing that there's some exciting news coming on Instagram. Are you gonna share it with me? This won't be coming out until March, so it won't be a spoiler. tamzin: Yeah. Okay, it won't be a spoiler. Well, we are collaborating with Donna Ashworth. Michelle: my favourite, favourite person! I was literally just reading her this morning. tamzin: Yeah, brilliant. But we're also collaborating later on with Their Nibs, the pyjamas. So basically what we're doing with Donna is we're going to do a live, we're going to do a photo shoot, we're going to actually set some bits up and it's happening quite organically, but she is so wonderful and she gives a proportion of her profits to a charity and she always has, but she's just about to switch to our charity, so we'll be the chosen charity for a while. So that'll be lovely. It's a perfect fit. Michelle: That is a perfect partnership. What you're about and what she, she's such an empath and she has such an intrinsic understanding of women and articulates our grief and our emotions and our wisdoms and our, so many things. She is remarkable as a woman. tamzin: I know. She's so clever. She's such a, but also she's, she's like, there's something about her that's kind of, she's got a business brain, but she's an empath. And so she saw something in us and what we were doing. And I've always loved her book since the first one. So the fact that it's a two way street. we were supporting each other a while back. And I think, She gives, I mean, when we do a retreat, she'll send 10 books and we put them in the bed. But she also has, now she's got her journal. So at some point she's gonna actually come on the retreat and do a talk and like a session on journaling and how poetry and reading and writing actually helps you. She's got a wonderful understanding of the human psyche. She really does. Michelle : And her journal would be so perfect of course. tamzin: And she, like you say, she's so eloquent and she's very talented at writing. she's just this all-around beautiful energy. Michelle: She gets my vote for poet laureate, I think. We need someone. We need Donna to get poet laureate. What a beautiful way to end, I think. I'm so glad that you and Donna are partnering up. That really is a outstanding partnership and I'll be looking forward to seeing more on that. So again, I just want to reiterate if anybody wants to nominate or to help offer their services or just support actually. tamzin: Yes, definitely. Michelle: Go to your Instagram, that's WeFreeWomen or to go to your website is WeFreeWomen.org Tamzin: WeFreeWomen Instagram or WeFreeWomen.org . Yes, excellent. Michelle : You are an absolute star, Tamzin. Thank you so much for joining me. And I offer my support in any way I possibly can to your incredible charity. It's amazing. tamzin: Thank you so much, really appreciate it.

By Sara G. Allison, Trichologist and Founder of Hair Today More Tomorrow Sara G Allison - trichologist If you've noticed your hair becoming thinner, drier, or just not as full as it once was, you're not alone. Many women in their 40s, 50s, and beyond start to see changes in their hair and scalp — and yet, very few talk about it. As a trichologist, most of my clients are women — not the middle-aged bald men people assume I see! In fact, the majority are perimenopausal to postmenopausal, dealing with hormonal shifts, changing nutrition needs, and the emotional weight of midlife. For many women, hair is deeply personal. It’s part of your identity — your style, your confidence, your femininity. And when it starts to thin, break, or shed excessively, it can feel incredibly distressing. Often, I’m the first person a woman has ever spoken to about her hair loss. It’s a silent struggle, shared only with a sister, a best friend — if at all. But here’s the good news: there is so much you can do to support healthy hair growth. Whether you’re experiencing hair loss or just want your hair to feel thicker and stronger, these are my top recommendations: Stimulating shampoo 1. Wash Your Hair Regularly — and Choose the Right Shampoo Washing your hair at least every other day helps remove sweat, dead skin, and product buildup — all of which can clog follicles and contribute to shedding. Avoid dry shampoo, which strips moisture and causes buildup. It’s fine in emergencies, but not something to rely on regularly. Scalp health is crucial — blocked follicles from sweat, toxins, and dead skin cells can impact shine, condition, and even lead to hair loss. As we get older, the scalp can become drier and more prone to flaking. Many women start washing their hair less often in midlife, assuming it’s less oily than in younger years — but this can make matters worse if dryness or build-up sets in. That’s why I formulated my Organic Stimulating Hair Growth Shampoo , made with powerful botanical ingredients: Rosemary & peppermint oils  to stimulate the scalp and promote circulation Aloe vera  to soothe and hydrate Argan oil  to nourish, smooth and protect Glycerin  to draw in moisture, repair damage, and give a smooth, shiny finish It’s also free from SLS, silicones, and parabens , so you’re not loading your scalp with ingredients that can interfere with healthy growth. 2. Don’t Neglect Your Scalp If you’re noticing flaking, dryness, or discomfort, it may be time to care for your scalp more intentionally. Many midlife women find their scalps become drier, which can lead to irritation or buildup — especially if they’re shampooing less often. I recommend trying one of my dandruff shampoos  or my wonderful scalp exfoliator . Regular exfoliation can help remove dead skin cells, reduce flakiness, and keep your follicles clear — giving your hair the healthiest possible foundation to grow from. 3. Be Gentle with Styling Hair becomes more delicate with age and hormonal changes, so gentle handling makes a big difference. Use paddle brushes  to detangle and massage the scalp to encourage blood flow. Brush before shampooing. After washing, apply conditioner with your fingers or a wide-tooth comb. Minimise brushing while wet to reduce breakage, and keep heat tools on a low setting to avoid unnecessary damage. 4. Reduce Midlife Stress This stage of life often comes with a lot to juggle: Supporting children — whether they’re young adults or even grandchildren Caring for elderly relatives Managing your own health and wellbeing Keeping up with career or life responsibilities Dealing with menopause and hormonal changes Many women also experience new levels of anxiety  during this phase, often linked to declining progesterone and changes in thyroid function. Stress is a major contributor to hair loss — it can disrupt thyroid activity, deplete nutrients, and shift hair into the shedding phase. What can help? Practising daily mindfulness 10 minutes of meditation Time in nature Regular movement and rest These small changes can have a big impact on your nervous system — and your hair. 5. Check Your Medications and HRT Carefully Many women in midlife are prescribed medications for: Blood pressure Cholesterol Osteoporosis Depression Any of these  can contribute to hair thinning. The same goes for HRT . While it can be helpful for managing menopausal symptoms, many commonly prescribed versions contain synthetic progestins , which may negatively impact hair health. If you’re considering HRT, ask your GP about switching to a natural progesterone  alternative. It’s usually better tolerated when it comes to hair. The oestrogen component is typically safer in gel, patch, or tablet form. M&O supplements 6. Support Hair from the Inside — with Nutrition and Blood Testing Hair is 80–90% protein, so nutritional support is essential. One of the most common deficiencies I see is low iron  and ferritin , especially in those reducing or avoiding red meat. Red meat — particularly organic and grass-fed — is rich in iron, zinc, B12 and vitamin D , which are all crucial for hair. I always include in-depth blood testing  as part of my consultations. It helps uncover nutritional gaps or imbalances your GP might miss. I assess levels with hair health in mind — not just whether they fall within “normal” NHS ranges, but whether they’re truly optimal for growth and vitality. I also look at thyroid health, which is often underactive in women 40+ and can be the root of fatigue, weight changes, and thinning hair. If you don’t eat red meat regularly, I recommend my  Iron Plus  — a gut-friendly, non-constipating, vegan-friendly formula that’s highly bioavailable and helps raise ferritin levels super fast compared to other iron supplements. For those focused on bone health, calcium isn’t enough on its own . My High Strength Vitamin D  contains all the essential co-factors — vitamin K2, magnesium and zinc  — to direct calcium where it’s needed (like bones and possibly hair), rather than allowing it to settle in soft tissues. As we age, we may  absorb less vitamin B12 , especially if you’ve been on antacids or PPIs. My Biotin & B-Complex provides high-dose B12 alongside a full complex of energising B vitamins that support hair, energy, and wellbeing. 7. Supplement Wisely I formulated My M&O’s  as a complete, bioavailable daily supplement that supports hair growth from the inside out. It includes: Highly absorbable vitamins and minerals Organic omega oils High-potency antioxidants to reduce inflammation and support cellular repair Selected live bacterial strains to support gut health, hormone balance and nutrient absorption It also contains key nutrients that contribute to collagen production , which is vital for healthy hair structure, strength, and elasticity — particularly as collagen naturally declines with age. And while we’re on the subject of collagen...  I also offer a specialist collagen supplement  designed specifically for hair, and particularly suited to menopausal and postmenopausal women. Many collagen products focus on skin, but mine is formulated to support hair regrowth, making it an excellent companion to My M&O’s for those who want to give their hair every advantage. Always choose capsules over tablets , and check for clean formulations . Avoid additives like magnesium stearate , which is often used as a filler and can reduce absorption. My M&O’s is free from bulking agents and unnecessary extras — just pure, effective ingredients to support your hair and overall health. Even if you're still on medication or dealing with stress, this can give your body the foundation it needs to regrow healthier, stronger hair. 8. Balance Blood Sugar and Reduce Carbs Midlife often brings a creeping weight gain — especially around the middle. This is frequently linked to blood sugar imbalances  and increased insulin resistance , which can also impact hair. A diet high in refined carbohydrates and sugar can drive inflammation and disrupt hormones. Cutting back can help rebalance your body and give your hair a better chance to thrive. 9. Speak Up — You Don’t Have to Keep Quiet About Hair Loss If your hair feels thinner, flatter, or simply “not like it used to be,” you are not alone — and you absolutely don’t have to accept it as just part of getting older. Hair Today More Tomorrow is here to help uncover the root cause and guide you toward meaningful, visible results — whether your hair changes are hormonal, nutritional, stress-related, or simply part of life’s ups and downs. Even if you're not sure where to start, you're welcome to call the office for a quick chat  — we understand how personal and emotional this can be, and sometimes a friendly conversation is the first step. Call us on +44 7557 645217 Here’s how you can take the next step: Book a consultation with me : hairlossconsultant.co.uk Prefer to start with products?  Visit: hairlossconsultant.co.uk/shop Want a shorter, print-friendly version to keep on hand?  Download my free guide: 7 Secrets to Stop Thinning Hair Subscribe to my YouTube channel : @saranadaf